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Freakonomics Radio + Stitcher

Freakonomics co-author Stephen J. Dubner uncovers the hidden side of everything. Why is it safer to fly in an airplane than drive a car? How do we decide whom to marry? Why is the media so full of bad news? Also: things you never knew you wanted to know about wolves, bananas, pollution, search engines, and the quirks of human behavior.

To get every show in the Freakonomics Radio Network without ads and a monthly bonus episode of Freakonomics Radio, start a free trial for SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus.

Freakonomics Radio

Not exactly. But their runaway success with games like Wordle says something bigger about the way we live now. (Part one of a series, “We Are All Gamers Now.”)

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Alex Hardiman • , chief product officer at The New York Times.

 Jonathan Knight • , S.V.P. and general manager for New York Times Games.

 Eric Zimmerman • , game designer, professor of game design at the N.Y.U. Game Center.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
Wordle Is a Love Story • ," by Daniel Victor 
(New York Times, • 2022).

 The Rules We Break: Lessons in Play, Thinking, and Design, • by Eric Zimmerman (2022).

 Thinking Inside the Box: Adventures with Crosswords and the Puzzling People Who Can't Live Without Them, • by Adrienne Raphel (2020).

 The Grasshopper: Games, Life and Utopia, • by Bernard Suits (2005).

 Rules of Play: Game Design Fundamentals, • by Katie Salen Tekinbas and Eric Zimmerman (2003).

 

 
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675. Has the New York Times Become a Games Company?

Great. Then depressed. Then great again. Stephen Dubner gets the full story from David Lang; we also hear from some fans, and the New York Philharmonic’s president. The math and the aftermath of wealth of nations. (Part two of a series.)

 

 SOURCES: • 

 David Lang • , composer and professor at the Yale School of Music.

 Matías Tarnopolsky • , president and C.E.O. of the New York Philharmonic.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
Finally, an Opera About Economics • ," by Stacey Vanek Smith 
(Bloomberg, • 2026).

 "The Little Match Girl Passion • ," by David Lang 
( • 2023
).
 The Wealth of Nations, • by Adam Smith (1776).

 

 

 EXTRAS: • 

 • "
David Lang’s the wealth of nations, • " series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2026).

 • "
In Search of the Real Adam Smith • ," series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2022).

 

 
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674. How Does a Composer Feel After the World Premiere?

Economists and politicians have turned him into a mascot for free-market ideology. Some on the left say the right has badly misread him. In this updated replay of a 2022 episode, we hold a very Smithy tug of war.

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Eamonn Butler • , co-founder and director of the Adam Smith Institute.

 Glory Liu • , a political scientist and Adam Smith scholar at Georgetown University.

 Mariana Mazzucato • , professor in the economics of innovation and public value at University College London.

 Dennis Rasmussen • , a professor of political science at Syracuse University.

 Russ Roberts • , president of Shalem College in in Jerusalem; host of the 
EconTalk • podcast; and author.

 Craig Smith • , Adam Smith Senior Lecturer in the Scottish Enlightenment at the University of Glasgow.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 Adam Smith’s America: How a Scottish Philosopher Became an Icon of American Capitalism, • by Gloria Liu (2022).

 • "
Henry and Adam: A Deep and Special Friendship • ," by Benny Higgins (
Adam Smith Panmure House Perspective • , 2020).

 • "
Rescuing Adam Smith From Myth and Misrepresentation • ," (
The Economist, • 2018).

 The Infidel and the Professor: David Hume, Adam Smith, and the Friendship That Shaped Modern Thought, • by Dennis C. Rasmussen (2017).

 How Adam Smith Can Change Your Life: An Unexpected Guide to Human Nature and Happiness, • by Russ Roberts (2014).

 • "
British Privatization — Taking Capitalism to the People • ," by John Moore (
Harvard Business Review, • 1992).

 Free to Choose: A Personal Statement, • by Milton Friedman and Rose Friedman (1990).

 The Essential Adam Smith, • edited by Robert L. Heilbroner (1986).

 An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, • by Adam Smith (1776).

 The Theory of Moral Sentiments, • by Adam Smith (1759).

 

 

 EXTRAS: • 

 • "
In Search of the Real Adam Smith • ," series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2022).

 

 
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Was Adam Smith Really a Right-Winger? (Update)

That’s what the Pulitzer Prize-winning composer David Lang wanted to learn. So he turned Adam Smith’s The Wealth of Nations into an oratorio. We tag along as Lang’s piece heads toward its world premiere with the New York Philharmonic. (Part one of a two-part series.)

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Fleur Barron • , opera singer and mezzo-soprano.

 David Lang • , composer and professor at the Yale School of Music.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
Finally, an Opera About Economics • ," by Stacey Vanek Smith 
(Bloomberg, • 2026).

 • "
The Little Match Girl Passion • ," by David Lang 
(2023).
 The Wealth of Nations, • by Adam Smith (1776).

 

 

 EXTRAS: • 

 • "
In Search of the Real Adam Smith • ," series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2022).

 

 
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673. What Is Money?

Epic Systems manages the electronic health records for hundreds of millions of people. This makes Faulkner a healthcare heavyweight and one of the most successful female entrepreneurs in history. So why haven’t we ever heard much from her? Stephen Dubner travels to Verona, Wisc., to explore the Faulknerverse.

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Judy Faulkner • , C.E.O. and founder of Epic Systems.

 Seth Howard • , executive vice president of research and development at Epic Systems.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
Epic Systems (MyChart) • ," by 
Acquired • (2025).

 • "
Federal antitrust lawsuit against Wisconsin-based Epic Systems will move forward • ," by Joe Schulz 
(Wisconsin Public Radio, • 2025).

 • "
Bill Gates meets Willy Wonka: How Epic’s 82-year-old billionaire CEO, Judy Faulkner, built her software factory • ," by Ashley Capoot 
(CNBC, • 2025).

 • "
Epic: The Future of Health Information Technology • ," by Regina Herzlinger and Brian Walker 
(Harvard Business School, • 2024).

 

 

 EXTRAS: • 

 • "
Can A.I. Save Your Life? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2026).

 • "
How to Fix the Hot Mess of U.S. Healthcare • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2021).

 

 
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672. What Makes Judy Faulkner Run?

New York City’s mayor called them “public enemy number one.” History books say they caused the Black Death — although recent scientific evidence disputes that claim. In an updated episode from 2025, we ask: Is the rat a scapegoat? And what does our rat hatred say about us?

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Bethany Brookshire • , author of 
Pests: How Humans Create Animal Villains.
 Kathy Corradi • , senior vice president of resident services, partnerships, and initiatives at the New York City Housing Authority.

 Ed Glaeser • , professor of economics at Harvard University.

 Nils Stenseth • , professor of ecology and evolution at the University of Oslo.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
On Patrol With the Rat Czar, • " by Mark Chiusano 
(Intelligencer, • 2024).

 • "
How Rats Took Over North America, • " by Allison Parshall 
(Scientific American, • 2024).

 • "
Where Are the Rats in New York City, • " by Matt Yan 
(New York Times, • 2024).

 Pests: How Humans Create Animal Villains • by Bethany Brookshire (2022).

 • "
Human ectoparasites and the spread of plague in Europe during the Second Pandemic, • " by Nils Stenseth, Katharine Dean, Fabienne Krauer, Lars Walløe, Ole Christian Lingjærde, Barbara Bramanti, and Boris Schmid 
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, • 2018).

 

 

 EXTRAS: • 

 • "
Freakonomics Radio Live: 'Jesus Could Have Been a Pigeon.' • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2018).

 

 
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Why Does Everyone Hate Rats? (Update)

One possibility: a leading hypothesis pursued by researchers (and funders) was built on science that now appears to be fraudulent. Stephen Dubner speaks with the scientist and the journalist who blew the whistle.

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Charles Piller • , investigative journalist for 
Science, • author of 
Doctored • .

 Matthew Schrag • , associate professor of neurology at Vanderbilt University Medical Center.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 Doctored: Fraud, Arrogance, and Tragedy in the Quest to Cure Alzheimer's, • by Charles Piller (2025).

 • "
The brain makes a lot of waste. Now scientists think they know where it goes • ," by Jon Hamilton 
(NPR, • 2024).

 • "
The history of Alzheimer’s disease • ," by Lisa Kiani and Richard Hodson 
(Nature, • 2024).

 

 

 EXTRAS: • 

 • "
Can Marty Makary Fix the F.D.A.? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2026).

 • "
Are You Ready for the Elder Swell? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2025).

 

 
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671. Why Has There Been So Little Progress on Alzheimer’s Disease?

How do beekeepers make a living? Why is there so much honey fraud? And why did billions of bees suddenly disappear? To find out, guest host Steve Levitt activates his hive mind.

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Alex Sapoznik • , historian, reader in late medieval history at King’s College London.

 Chris Hiatt • , past president of the American Honey Producers Association, owner of Hiatt Honey Company.

 Michael Roberts • , founding executive director of the Resnick Center for Food Law and Policy at U.C.L.A. Law School.

 Walter "Wally" Thurman • , professor emeritus of agricultural economics at North Carolina State University.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
U.S. honey is increasingly supplied through imports • ," by David Olsen 
(USDA Economic Research Service, • 2018).

 • "
Economic Effects and Responses to Changes in Honey Bee Health • ," by Peyton Ferrier, Randal Rucker, Walter Thurman, and Michael Burgett 
(USDA Economic Research Service, • 2018).

 • "
The Fable of the Bees: An Economic Investigation • ," by Steven Cheung 
(The Journal of Law and Economics, • 1973).

 • "
Sugar and Sweeteners Yearbook Tables - Visualization: Meeting honey demand in the United States • ," 
(USDA Economic Research Service) • .

 

 
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670. Beeconomics 101

Nearly everything that politicians say about taxes is at least half a lie. They are also dishonest when it comes to the national debt. In this update of an episode from 2025, Stephen Dubner finds one of the few people in Washington who is willing to tell the truth — and it’s even worse than you think.

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Jessica Riedl • , budget and tax fellow at the Brookings Institution.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
How Did DOGE Disrupt So Much While Saving So Little? • " by Emily Badger, David Fahrenthold, Alicia Parlapiano, and Margot Sanger-Katz 
(New York Times, • 2025).

 • "
Correcting the Top 10 Tax Myths, • " by Jessica Riedl 
(Manhattan Institute, • 2024).

 • "
Spending, Taxes, and Deficits: A Book of Charts, • " by Jessica Riedl 
(Manhattan Institute, • 2024).

 • "
Why Did Americans Stop Caring About the National Debt? • " by Jessica Riedl 
(Reason, • 2024).

 • "
A Comprehensive Federal Budget Plan to Avert a Debt Crisis, • " by Jessica Riedl 
(Manhattan Institute, • 2024).

 • "
When Does Federal Debt Reach Unsustainable Levels? • " by Jagadeesh Gokhale, Kent Smetters, and Mariko Paulson 
(The Wharton School of Business, • 2023).

 • "
The Limits of Taxing the Rich, • " by Jessica Riedl 
(Manhattan Institute, • 2023).

 

 

 EXTRAS: • 

 • "
Farewell to a Generational Talent, • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2024).

 

 

 
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Ten Myths About the U.S. Tax System (Update)

Is it tradition … or protectionism? And what happens when the bourbon boom turns into a glut?

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Andrew Muhammad • , agricultural economist at the University of Tennessee.

 Brad Patrick • , executive in residence and lecturer at the University of Kentucky Gatton College of Business and Economics, bourbon fellow at the James B. Beam Institute for Kentucky Spirits.

 Danny Kahn • , master distiller and distillation and aging operations director at Sazerac.

 Ken Troske • , labor economist and chair of the economics department at the University of Kentucky.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
America's Bourbon Boom Is Over. Now the Hangover Is Here • ," by Aaron Tilley and Sadie Gurman (
The Wall Street Journal • , 2024).

 Bourbon Empire: The Past and Future of America's Whiskey • , by Reid Mitenbuler (2015).

 • "
Code of Federal Regulations: Standards of Identity for Distilled Spirits • ," (
Electronic Code of Federal Regulations) • .

 

 
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674. How Does a Composer Feel After the World Premiere?

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