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Strong Towns

Sometimes, a hot new story will cross our desks that we need to talk about right away. That's where Upzoned comes in. Join Strong Towns President Chuck Marohn, Carlee Alm-LaBar, Norm Van Eeden Petersman, and other guests to talk in depth about one big story from the week in the Strong Towns conversation, right when you want it: now.

Upzoned

Hartman, Colorado, reached a point where it could no longer function as a town. Its water system was unsafe, every member of the town board had resigned, and no one remained with the authority to hold an election or sign the agreements needed to fix the water. Norm Van Eeden Petersman is joined by Joshua Hopkins, mayor of Chugwater, Wyoming, and Strong Towns executive director John Reuter to look past the political infighting and ask what happened before the final collapse. The question facing places like Hartman and Chugwater is increasingly basic: How much town can a very small community actually afford to maintain?

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
Colorado declares town abandoned amid water and leadership crisis • " by Ramon Antonio Vargas, Theguardian.com (August 2026)

Norm Van Eeden Petersman • (LinkedIn)

 • Joshua Hopkins (
LinkedIn • , 
Instagram • )

John Reuter • (LinkedIn)

 • Articles mentioned and Downzone: 

How a Rodeo Arena Can Strengthen A Rural Community • (Bottom-Up Short Episode)

Don’t Give Up on Your Small Town • (Article)

Whatever Happened to the Music Teacher? How Government Decides and Why • by Donald Savoie (Book) 

Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion • by Robert B. Cialdini (Book)

Chugwaterite • (Instagram)

 • 

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

The Water Crisis That Left a Small Town Abandoned

What if the easiest way to overcome opposition to new housing was simply to pay people to accept it? A recent article in The Atlantic argues that after state laws, packed public meetings, and economic appeals have failed to overcome local resistance, cash payments might succeed where persuasion has not. Chuck Marohn is joined by John Reuter, executive director of Strong Towns, and Dr. Chloe Groome, treasurer of Strong Towns Chicago, to test that idea against what they’ve seen in real neighborhoods. Their discussion turns to what happens when new neighbors are framed as a burden, and whether cash can do the work that persuasion, trust, and local relationships have failed to do.

 • "
A Perfectly Crude Solution to America’s Housing Shortage • " by Rogé Karma, Theatlantic.com (July 2026)

Chuck Marohn • (LinkedIn)

John Reuter • (LinkedIn)

Dr. Chloe Groome • (LinkedIn), 
Strong Towns Chicago • (Site)

 • Articles Mentioned and Downzone: 

The Human Condition • by Hannah Arendt (Site)

Farm To Taber • (YouTube Channel)

Stolen Revolution: Betrayal and Hope in Modern Iran • by Yeganeh Torbati and Bozorgmehr Sharafedin (Site)

 • 

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

What If NIMBYs Were Paid to Say Yes?

What happens when one generation holds much of the country’s housing wealth and has little reason to give it up? Chuck Marohn talks with Strong Towns board chair Andrew Burleson and historic property renovator Richard Rumrill about boomers buying bigger homes, even as younger families wait for those houses to come back onto the market. The generational frustration is easy to understand, but the expected handoff assumes older homeowners will be ready to leave. What happens when the people expected to move have nowhere they want to go, and everyone behind them is still waiting?

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
Boomers Were Supposed to Downsize. They Are Buying Bigger Homes Instead. • " by Rachel Louise Ensign, Wsj.com (July 2026)

Chuck Marohn • (LinkedIn)

Andrew Burleson • (LinkedIn), 
Free Range City • (Substack)

Richard Rumrill • (LinkedIn), 
Strong Towns RVA • (Site)

 • Articles Mentioned and Downzone: 

Regime Change: Inside the Imperial Presidency of Donald Trump • by Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan (Site)

Kids Over Cars • (Substack)

#42 Charles Duff: North Atlantic Cities - The Forgotten Blueprint for the Future • Building Culture (Podcast)

The North Atlantic Cities • by Charles Duff (Site)

 • 

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

When Boomers Don’t Downsize, What’s Left for Everyone Else?

Americans have been told that buying a home is one of the safest ways to secure their future. But when retirement depends on home values continuing to climb, affordability begins to look like a threat. Carlee Alm-LaBar is joined by Daniel Herriges, co-author of Escaping the Housing Trap, and Alli Thurmond-Quinlan, executive director of the Incremental Development Alliance. Together, they push beyond the idea that housing is simply an investment problem. Limited supply, narrow housing choices, transportation, retirement, and municipal finance are all tied into the same system, leaving people with fewer ways to find security at every stage of life.

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
The Housing Crisis Is Also a Retirement Crisis • " by Kyla Scanlon, Nytimes.com (July 2026)

 • Downzone: 

From Strength to Strength • , by Arthur C. Brooks (Site)

Construction Physics • (Substack)

World Cup 2026 • (Site)

 • 

Carlee Alm-LaBar • (LinkedIn)

Daniel Herriges • (LinkedIn)

Alli Thurmond-Quinlan • (LinkedIn)

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

The Retirement Plan Trapped Inside the Housing Crisis

In 2009, Chicago traded 75 years of parking meter revenue for a $1.2 billion payment that helped fill an immediate budget hole. Norm Van Eeden Petersman is joined by Tony Jordan, executive director of the Parking Reform Network, and Edward Erfurt, chief technical advisor at Strong Towns, to look at what the city actually gave up and why its recent $3.3 billion bid never made it to the finish line. The lease still shapes decisions about removing parking for bus lanes, bike lanes and wider sidewalks, while the revenue keeps flowing to a private operator instead of back into the places generating it. That leaves Chicago with a much harder question than whether the original deal was bad: what would it take to manage the curb again, regain flexibility and use that money to improve the streets themselves?

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
Mayor’s $3 Billion Parking Meter Offer Was $800 Million More Than The Next Highest Bid, Investor Says • " by Mick Dumke, Blockclubchicago.org (June 2026)

Norm Van Eeden Petersman • (LinkedIn)

Tony Jordan • (Site)

Edward Erfurt • (LinkedIn)

 • Articles mentioned and Downzone: 

 • '
Why ‘SimCity’ has no parking lots, and other insights from the lead designer • ' (Article)

Simulating the Future: a webinar with Stone Librande • (Video)

A Wailing Of A Town: An Oral History of Early San Pedro Punk And More 1977-1985 • by Craig Ibarra (Book) 

Recoding America: Why Government Is Failing in the Digital Age and How We Can Do Better • by Jennifer Pahlka (Book)

Sam Walton: Made In America • , by Sam Walton and John Huey (Book)

Microlandia • (Site)

 • 

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

Chicago’s $1.2 Billion Parking Meter Problem

Five years after wildfire destroyed most of Lytton, British Columbia, rebuilding remains slow despite more than $140 million in committed public funding. Norm Van Eeden Petersman talks with Michel Durand-Wood, author of You’ll Pay for This, and Graham Watt, who manages strategic initiatives and flood recovery for Grand Forks, British Columbia. They look at what happens when a small town is pushed to rebuild everything at once, while also dealing with hazardous conditions, limited local capacity, consulting costs, modern codes, and the long-term obligation to maintain whatever comes next. The money creates a promise of recovery, but Lytton shows how hard it is to turn that promise back into a town.

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
Inside Lytton’s contentious recovery, where concerns smoulder 5 years after wildfire • " by Brenna Owen, Halifax.citynews.ca (June 2026)

Norm Van Eeden Petersman • (LinkedIn)

Michel Durand-Wood • (Site)

Graham Watt • (LinkedIn)

 • Downzone: 

The Baby-Sitters Club • 

Human Nature • by Kate Marvel (Site)

The Blackthorn Key • , by Kevin Sands (Site)

 • 

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

Can Rebuilding Make a Town Weaker?

Chuck Marohn has long been critical of housing research that treats affordability as a simple supply problem. This week, he brings Andrew Burleson, chair of the Strong Towns board, and Jeff Fong, a board member at YIMBY Action, a new paper on Australia’s housing crisis that starts somewhere else: with the way price increases move between detached houses and apartments, and from one city to another. The paper argues that detached homes help lead the market, while the discussion keeps returning to a harder question: how much of the crisis is about housing supply, and how much is about the financial incentives built into the market?

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
The role of price spillovers in the Australian housing crisis: A two-market analysis • " by Shu-Hen Chiang, Chyi Lin Lee, and Chi Man Eddie Hiu, Sciencedirect.com (June 2026)

Chuck Marohn • (LinkedIn)

Andrew Burleson • (LinkedIn), 
Free Range City • (Substack)

Jeff Fong • (LinkedIn), 
Urban Proxima • (Substack)

 • Articles Mentioned and Downzone: 

Fifa • (Site)

'We Can Never Go Back' • (Substack)

Apple in China: The Capture of the World's Greatest Company • , by Patrick McGee (Goodreads)

 • 

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

The Housing Crisis Isn’t Moving in One Direction

When Charlotte and its regional planning body withdrew support for a $4.3 billion widening of Interstate 77, North Carolina lawmakers responded by threatening a $60 million penalty and a funding cutoff. Host Carlee Alm-LaBar is joined by Patrick Kennedy, whose Atlas of Inner-City Highway Impacts documents highway damage across 142 cities, and John Reuter, the newly named Executive Director of Strong Towns, to break down the sunk cost trap, the real math behind highway "assets," and why the local officials who pushed back may have saved far more than they spent.

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
N.C. Lawmakers May Claw Back $60M for Cancelled I-77 Project • " by Ray Gronberg, Businessnc.com (June 2026)

 • Downzone: 

Atlas of Inner-City Highway Impacts • (PDF)

Mission Accomplished • (Site)

Dealing with Dragons • (Site)

Fifa • (Site)

 • 

Carlee Alm-LaBar • (LinkedIn)

Patrick Kennedy • (LinkedIn)

John Reuter • (LinkedIn)

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

Charlotte Said No to a $4.3 Billion Highway. Now the State Wants $60 Million Back.

A decade ago, a row of North Park storefronts was cleared for a university housing project that never came. The businesses are gone, the buildings are mostly empty, and neighbors are still pushing Northeastern Illinois University to act. Norm Van Eeden Petersman is joined by Bernice Radle, an incremental developer in Buffalo, and Alex Montero of Strong Towns Chicago to ask why places like this get stuck. What begins as the story of one vacant block turns into a deeper question: once a place has been cleared for a future vision, what happens when that future never arrives? The conversation explores why smaller, incremental approaches can succeed where larger plans stall, and what gets lost when neighborhoods are left waiting.

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
Northeastern University Fought To Take Over A North Park Block. 10 Years Later, It’s Still Vacant • " by Millie DeVore, Blockclubchicago.com (May 2026)

Norm Van Eeden Petersman • (LinkedIn)

Bernice Radle • (LinkedIn)

Alex Montero • (LinkedIn)

 • Articles Mentioned and Downzone: 

The Corner Side Yard • (Substack)

Cerrone • (Spotify)

Brittania Mine Museum • (Site)

 • 

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

Why Do Vacant Storefronts Stay Vacant?

With the World Cup coming to North America, millions of visitors will encounter more than stadiums and soccer. They’ll also encounter the transportation systems, infrastructure gaps, and car-dependent development patterns that shape daily life in U.S. cities. Norm Van Eeden Petersman talks with Chuck Marohn and Rick Cole about “catastrophic money,” the danger of building for spectacle instead of long-term value, and what major events reveal about the places that host them. These visitors will move on when the games are over, but the systems they struggled with will still be ours to live with.

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
The U.S. campaigned to host the World Cup. Now soccer fans will trade their countries’ train system for the U.S.’s ‘D’ rated infrastructure • " by Catherine Gioino, Fortune.com (May 2026)

Norm Van Eeden Petersman • (LinkedIn)

Chuck Marohn • (LinkedIn)

Rick Cole • (LinkedIn)

 • Articles Mentioned and Downzone: 

Just a thought: a Texas based World Cup • (Article)

The Mission: CIA in the 21st Century • by Tim Weiner

The Troubles: Ireland's Ordeal 1966-1996 and the Search for Peace • by Tim Pat Coogan

Only Murders in the Building • (Site)

 • 

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

What If NIMBYs Were Paid to Say Yes?

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