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Strong Towns

Sometimes, a hot new story will cross our desks that we need to talk about right away. That's where Upzoned comes in. Join Strong Towns President Chuck Marohn, Carlee Alm-LaBar, Norm Van Eeden Petersman, and other guests to talk in depth about one big story from the week in the Strong Towns conversation, right when you want it: now.

Upzoned

Americans have been told that buying a home is one of the safest ways to secure their future. But when retirement depends on home values continuing to climb, affordability begins to look like a threat. Carlee Alm-LaBar is joined by Daniel Herriges, co-author of Escaping the Housing Trap, and Alli Thurmond-Quinlan, executive director of the Incremental Development Alliance. Together, they push beyond the idea that housing is simply an investment problem. Limited supply, narrow housing choices, transportation, retirement, and municipal finance are all tied into the same system, leaving people with fewer ways to find security at every stage of life.

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
The Housing Crisis Is Also a Retirement Crisis • " by Kyla Scanlon, Nytimes.com (July 2026)

 • Downzone: 

From Strength to Strength • , by Arthur C. Brooks (Site)

Construction Physics • (Substack)

World Cup 2026 • (Site)

 • 

Carlee Alm-LaBar • (LinkedIn)

Daniel Herriges • (LinkedIn)

Alli Thurmond-Quinlan • (LinkedIn)

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

The Retirement Plan Trapped Inside the Housing Crisis

In 2009, Chicago traded 75 years of parking meter revenue for a $1.2 billion payment that helped fill an immediate budget hole. Norm Van Eeden Petersman is joined by Tony Jordan, executive director of the Parking Reform Network, and Edward Erfurt, chief technical advisor at Strong Towns, to look at what the city actually gave up and why its recent $3.3 billion bid never made it to the finish line. The lease still shapes decisions about removing parking for bus lanes, bike lanes and wider sidewalks, while the revenue keeps flowing to a private operator instead of back into the places generating it. That leaves Chicago with a much harder question than whether the original deal was bad: what would it take to manage the curb again, regain flexibility and use that money to improve the streets themselves?

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
Mayor’s $3 Billion Parking Meter Offer Was $800 Million More Than The Next Highest Bid, Investor Says • " by Mick Dumke, Blockclubchicago.org (June 2026)

Norm Van Eeden Petersman • (LinkedIn)

Tony Jordan • (Site)

Edward Erfurt • (LinkedIn)

 • Articles mentioned and Downzone: 

 • '
Why ‘SimCity’ has no parking lots, and other insights from the lead designer • ' (Article)

Simulating the Future: a webinar with Stone Librande • (Video)

A Wailing Of A Town: An Oral History of Early San Pedro Punk And More 1977-1985 • by Craig Ibarra (Book) 

Recoding America: Why Government Is Failing in the Digital Age and How We Can Do Better • by Jennifer Pahlka (Book)

Sam Walton: Made In America • , by Sam Walton and John Huey (Book)

Microlandia • (Site)

 • 

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

Chicago’s $1.2 Billion Parking Meter Problem

Five years after wildfire destroyed most of Lytton, British Columbia, rebuilding remains slow despite more than $140 million in committed public funding. Norm Van Eeden Petersman talks with Michel Durand-Wood, author of You’ll Pay for This, and Graham Watt, who manages strategic initiatives and flood recovery for Grand Forks, British Columbia. They look at what happens when a small town is pushed to rebuild everything at once, while also dealing with hazardous conditions, limited local capacity, consulting costs, modern codes, and the long-term obligation to maintain whatever comes next. The money creates a promise of recovery, but Lytton shows how hard it is to turn that promise back into a town.

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
Inside Lytton’s contentious recovery, where concerns smoulder 5 years after wildfire • " by Brenna Owen, Halifax.citynews.ca (June 2026)

Norm Van Eeden Petersman • (LinkedIn)

Michel Durand-Wood • (Site)

Graham Watt • (LinkedIn)

 • Downzone: 

The Baby-Sitters Club • 

Human Nature • by Kate Marvel (Site)

The Blackthorn Key • , by Kevin Sands (Site)

 • 

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

Can Rebuilding Make a Town Weaker?

Chuck Marohn has long been critical of housing research that treats affordability as a simple supply problem. This week, he brings Andrew Burleson, chair of the Strong Towns board, and Jeff Fong, a board member at YIMBY Action, a new paper on Australia’s housing crisis that starts somewhere else: with the way price increases move between detached houses and apartments, and from one city to another. The paper argues that detached homes help lead the market, while the discussion keeps returning to a harder question: how much of the crisis is about housing supply, and how much is about the financial incentives built into the market?

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
The role of price spillovers in the Australian housing crisis: A two-market analysis • " by Shu-Hen Chiang, Chyi Lin Lee, and Chi Man Eddie Hiu, Sciencedirect.com (June 2026)

Chuck Marohn • (LinkedIn)

Andrew Burleson • (LinkedIn), 
Free Range City • (Substack)

Jeff Fong • (LinkedIn), 
Urban Proxima • (Substack)

 • Articles Mentioned and Downzone: 

Fifa • (Site)

'We Can Never Go Back' • (Substack)

Apple in China: The Capture of the World's Greatest Company • , by Patrick McGee (Goodreads)

 • 

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

The Housing Crisis Isn’t Moving in One Direction

When Charlotte and its regional planning body withdrew support for a $4.3 billion widening of Interstate 77, North Carolina lawmakers responded by threatening a $60 million penalty and a funding cutoff. Host Carlee Alm-LaBar is joined by Patrick Kennedy, whose Atlas of Inner-City Highway Impacts documents highway damage across 142 cities, and John Reuter, the newly named Executive Director of Strong Towns, to break down the sunk cost trap, the real math behind highway "assets," and why the local officials who pushed back may have saved far more than they spent.

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
N.C. Lawmakers May Claw Back $60M for Cancelled I-77 Project • " by Ray Gronberg, Businessnc.com (June 2026)

 • Downzone: 

Atlas of Inner-City Highway Impacts • (PDF)

Mission Accomplished • (Site)

Dealing with Dragons • (Site)

Fifa • (Site)

 • 

Carlee Alm-LaBar • (LinkedIn)

Patrick Kennedy • (LinkedIn)

John Reuter • (LinkedIn)

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

Charlotte Said No to a $4.3 Billion Highway. Now the State Wants $60 Million Back.

A decade ago, a row of North Park storefronts was cleared for a university housing project that never came. The businesses are gone, the buildings are mostly empty, and neighbors are still pushing Northeastern Illinois University to act. Norm Van Eeden Petersman is joined by Bernice Radle, an incremental developer in Buffalo, and Alex Montero of Strong Towns Chicago to ask why places like this get stuck. What begins as the story of one vacant block turns into a deeper question: once a place has been cleared for a future vision, what happens when that future never arrives? The conversation explores why smaller, incremental approaches can succeed where larger plans stall, and what gets lost when neighborhoods are left waiting.

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
Northeastern University Fought To Take Over A North Park Block. 10 Years Later, It’s Still Vacant • " by Millie DeVore, Blockclubchicago.com (May 2026)

Norm Van Eeden Petersman • (LinkedIn)

Bernice Radle • (LinkedIn)

Alex Montero • (LinkedIn)

 • Articles Mentioned and Downzone: 

The Corner Side Yard • (Substack)

Cerrone • (Spotify)

Brittania Mine Museum • (Site)

 • 

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

Why Do Vacant Storefronts Stay Vacant?

With the World Cup coming to North America, millions of visitors will encounter more than stadiums and soccer. They’ll also encounter the transportation systems, infrastructure gaps, and car-dependent development patterns that shape daily life in U.S. cities. Norm Van Eeden Petersman talks with Chuck Marohn and Rick Cole about “catastrophic money,” the danger of building for spectacle instead of long-term value, and what major events reveal about the places that host them. These visitors will move on when the games are over, but the systems they struggled with will still be ours to live with.

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
The U.S. campaigned to host the World Cup. Now soccer fans will trade their countries’ train system for the U.S.’s ‘D’ rated infrastructure • " by Catherine Gioino, Fortune.com (May 2026)

Norm Van Eeden Petersman • (LinkedIn)

Chuck Marohn • (LinkedIn)

Rick Cole • (LinkedIn)

 • Articles Mentioned and Downzone: 

Just a thought: a Texas based World Cup • (Article)

The Mission: CIA in the 21st Century • by Tim Weiner

The Troubles: Ireland's Ordeal 1966-1996 and the Search for Peace • by Tim Pat Coogan

Only Murders in the Building • (Site)

 • 

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

The World Cup and America’s Own Goal

Sam Quinones keynoted the Strong Towns National Gathering last week and closed with a story about a tuba. If that left you wanting more, this conversation with Chuck Marohn is the place to start. This rerun from the Strong Towns Podcast follows Sam’s obsession with the “perfect tubas,” the almost-mythic York horns that tuba players have chased for decades. From there, he opens up a wider world of band rooms on the Texas border, long days playing at Disney World, and crowded Tuba Christmas events. Together, he and Chuck connect tubas, band culture, and strict musical standards to addiction, purpose, and how shared work and craft help hold communities together.

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • Sam Quinones (
LinkedIn • , 
Site • )

Chuck Marohn • (LinkedIn)

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

The Tuba and What It Actually Takes to Build Community

A viral town meeting clip from Marblehead, Massachusetts, raised a question that goes far beyond one zoning debate: What happens when a state says yes to more housing, but the local process still makes it hard to build? Or, as resident David Modica put it, “Are we trying to do nothing?” Carlee Alm-LaBar talks with Strong Towns Technical Advisor Edward Erfurt and Lafayette City Councilman Thomas Hooks about the messy handoff between policy and place. They look at why communities can comply on paper while resisting in practice, and why the next real step may be as small as one block, one lot, or one drawing that helps people see what is possible.

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
The Latest Hero of the ‘Yimby’ Movement Is a Massachusetts Man in a Hoodie • " by Will Parker, WSJ.com (May 2026)

 • Downzone: 

The Victory of Greenwood • , by Carlos Moreno (Site)

Scrubs Reboot • (Site)

Junior League of Lafayette • (Site)

Strong Towns National Gathering • (Site)

 • 

Carlee Alm-LaBar • (LinkedIn)

Thomas Hooks • (LinkedIn)

Edward Erfurt • (LinkedIn)

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

Are We Trying to Build No Houses?

Des Moines just approved an $8.4 million first phase for a $54 million park overhaul. The bid came in over estimate, and there's no maintenance plan in sight — meanwhile the city was cutting services 9% across the board just last year. Norm Van Eeden Petersman talks with parks consultant Jamie Sabbach, author of the new book The Bison Principle, and writer Michel Durand-Wood about what cities consistently leave out of these decisions. Construction is only about 20% of what a public asset costs over its lifetime, and most cities aren't planning for the rest. The conversation gets into maintenance backlogs, why capital and operating budgets are really the same money, and what a city would actually decide if the 50-year cost were part of the conversation from the start.

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
Birdland Park's $54M Overhaul Moves into Construction Phase • " by Jason Clayworth, Axios.com (April 2026)

Norm Van Eeden Petersman • (LinkedIn)

Jamie Sabbach • (LinkedIn), 
The Bison Principle • (Book)

Dear Winnipeg • (Site), 
You'll Pay For This! • (Book)

 • Articles Mentioned and Downzone: 

In Praise of Background Buildings • by Gracen Johnson

Places and Non-Places • by Andrew Price

Field of Schemes
Fizzy Fuzzy Big & Buzzy • - Album by The Refreshments

Team of Rivals • by Doris Kearns Goodwin

The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York • by Robert Caro

The 99% Invisible Breakdown of The Power Broker
 • 

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Thank you! Join fellow members discussing this episode in The Commons.

When The Ribbon Cutting Is the Cheapest Part

A Massachusetts town budgeted $600,000 for snow and ended up spending $6 million clearing its streets. Norm Van Eeden Petersman, Daniel Herriges, and Gracen Johnson trace the links between winter operations, stormwater, supply chains, labor, and land use in cities facing serious snow. Starting with Boston’s overrun numbers, they widen the lens to Ottawa’s snow storage sites and Minneapolis’ potholes, asking what happens when seasonal extremes collide with tight city budgets.

ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES

 • "
‘That comes with a price tag’: How snow removal is busting town budgets • " by Kate Selig, Bostonglobe.com (March 2026)

 • "
The Cost of an Extra Foot • " by Chuck Marohn

 • "
Transactions of Decline • " by Chuck Marohn

 • Downzone: 

 • "
Cost-Based Social Rental Housing in Europe • " (Web PDF)

The Ink • (Substack)

You'll Pay For This! • (Site)

Criminal Broads • (Site)

 • 

Norm Van Eeden Petersman • (LinkedIn)

Daniel Herriges • (LinkedIn)

Gracen Johnson • (LinkedIn)

Theme Music by Kemet the Phantom • .

 

This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Click here to learn more about membership.

The $600K Snow Budget That Became a $6 Million Problem

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