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Nathan Labenz

Erik Torenberg

A biweekly podcast where hosts Nathan Labenz and Erik Torenberg interview the builders on the edge of AI and explore the dramatic shift it will unlock in the coming years.
The Cognitive Revolution is part of the Turpentine podcast network. To learn more: turpentine.co

"The Cognitive Revolution" | AI Builders, Researchers, and Live Player Analysis

Today Eoghan McCabe and Fergal Reid of Intercom join The Cognitive Revolution to discuss building their AI customer service agent Fin, exploring how they achieved a 65% resolution rate through rigorous optimization and custom model training rather than relying on base model improvements, while pioneering outcome-based pricing at $0.99 per resolution.

Shownotes brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at: https://notion.com/lp/nathan

Sponsors:

Linear: 

Linear is the system for modern product development. Nearly every AI company you've heard of is using Linear to build products. Get 6 months of Linear Business for free at: https://linear.app/tcr

AGNTCY: 

AGNTCY is dropping code, specs, and services. Visit AGNTCY.org. Visit Outshift Internet of Agents

Claude: 

Claude is the AI collaborator that understands your entire workflow and thinks with you to tackle complex problems like coding and business strategy. Sign up and get 50% off your first 3 months of Claude Pro at https://claude.ai/tcr

Shopify: 

Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

CHAPTERS:

(00:00) About the Episode

(03:43) Keeping Up With AI

(09:56) Evaluating Models and Evals

(13:04) Incumbents vs. Startups

(18:54) Product Risk and Judgment (Part 1)

(19:00) Sponsors: Linear | AGNTCY

(21:34) Product Risk and Judgment (Part 2)

(23:42) The Klarna Layoff Story (Part 1)

(32:11) Sponsors: Claude | Shopify

(36:13) The Klarna Layoff Story (Part 2)

(36:14) Driving Resolution Rate

(45:00) Intelligence Isn't the Bottleneck

(50:10) Closing the Automation Gap

(56:20) Human vs. AI Accuracy

(01:01:03) The Nuance of Speed

(01:04:48) Considering Paradigm Changes

(01:09:31) Outcome-Based Pricing Model

(01:19:12) Casual Hacking and Insights

(01:26:05) AI Adoption and Ambition

(01:36:00) Outro

The Customer Service Revolution: Building Fin, with Eoghan McCabe & Fergal Reid of Intercom

Today’s special crosspost features a16z General Partner Anjney Midha with Liam Fedus and Ekin Dogus Cubuk of Periodic Labs. They discuss experiments in training frontier AI models on real-world physics lab experiments—rather than digital reward functions—and how coupling language models with automated materials synthesis could accelerate the discovery of room-temperature superconductors and transform R&D in advanced manufacturing.

Shownotes brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at: ⁠https://notion.com/lp/nathan

 
Core innovation: Periodic Labs is creating a "physically grounded reward function" by integrating experiments directly with AI systems.

 
Physical lab integration: Unlike traditional AI labs, Periodic includes actual physical experimentation facilities where AI can run tests in the real world.

 
Novel approach to training: Periodic takes pre-trained language models and further trains them on physics and chemistry knowledge to improve performance in scientific domains.

Read the full transcript here: https://storage.aipodcast.ing/cache/combinedtranscript-20251002T100327544Z.html

Sponsors:

Linear: 

Linear is the system for modern product development. Nearly every AI company you've heard of is using Linear to build products. Get 6 months of Linear Business for free at: https://linear.app/tcr

AGNTCY: 

AGNTCY is dropping code, specs, and services. Visit AGNTCY.org. Visit Outshift Internet of Agents

Claude: 

Claude is the AI collaborator that understands your entire workflow and thinks with you to tackle complex problems like coding and business strategy. Sign up and get 50% off your first 3 months of Claude Pro at https://claude.ai/tcr

Shopify: 

Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

Training an AI Scientist with Feedback from Reality, w- Liam Fedus & Ekin Dogus Cubuk (from a16z)

Today, Emad Mostaque, founder of Intelligent Internet, joins The Cognitive Revolution to discuss his book "The Last Economy" and his radical "intelligence theory" framework for reimagining economics in the AI age, exploring concepts like the abundance trap, metabolic rift, and his proposed cryptocurrency-funded system of collectively-owned AI infrastructure to prevent digital feudalism and ensure AI benefits humanity rather than just capital owners.

Shownotes brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at: https://notion.com/lp/nathan

Read the full transcript: https://storage.aipodcast.ing/transcripts/episode/tcr/936201c8-7b0b-4ec3-8f9d-057f08c32025/combined_transcript.html

Sponsors:

Fin: 

Fin is the #1 AI Agent for customer service, trusted by over 5000 customer service leaders and top AI companies including Anthropic and Synthesia. Fin is the highest performing agent on the market and resolves even the most complex customer queries. Try Fin today with our 90-day money-back guarantee - if you’re not 100% satisfied, get up to $1 million back. Learn more at https://fin.ai/cognitive

Linear: 

Linear is the system for modern product development. Nearly every AI company you've heard of is using Linear to build products. Get 6 months of Linear Business for free at: https://linear.app/tcr

AGNTCY: 

AGNTCY is dropping code, specs, and services. Visit AGNTCY.org. Visit Outshift Internet of Agents

Claude: 

Claude is the AI collaborator that understands your entire workflow and thinks with you to tackle complex problems like coding and business strategy. Sign up and get 50% off your first 3 months of Claude Pro at https://claude.ai/tcr

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: 

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs. Try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

The Machines Are Taking Our Jobs - Thank God? Emad Mostaque’s Guide to the next 1000 Days

Today, Emily Sands, head of data and AI at Stripe, joins The Cognitive Revolution to discuss how the company built a payments foundation model that processes tens of billions of transactions into dense embeddings, exploring the technical architecture behind fraud detection improvements and the modular approach that enables rapid deployment of AI across Stripe's $1.4 trillion payment network.

Check out our sponsors: Google Gemini Notebook LM, Linear, AGNTCY, Claude, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure.

Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at: https://notion.com/lp/nathan

 
Stripe's Scale: Processes $1.4 trillion annually, serving both small businesses and large enterprises (over half of Fortune 100 companies).

 
"Business in a Box": There's emerging potential for AI to handle end-to-end business creation, including selection of third-party tools, payment providers, and other essential services.

 
AI Company Partnerships: Two-thirds of the Forbes AI 50 companies already run on Stripe, as they focus on helping AI companies monetize effectively and scale globally.

Sponsors:

Google Gemini Notebook LM: 

Notebook LM is an AI-first tool that helps you make sense of complex information. Upload your documents and it instantly becomes a personal expert, helping you uncover insights and brainstorm new ideas at https://notebooklm.google.com

Linear: 

Linear is the system for modern product development. Nearly every AI company you've heard of is using Linear to build products. Get 6 months of Linear Business for free at: https://linear.app/tcr

AGNTCY: 

AGNTCY is dropping code, specs, and services.Visit AGNTCY.orgVisit Outshift Internet of Agents

Claude: 

Claude is the AI collaborator that understands your entire workflow and thinks with you to tackle complex problems like coding and business strategy. Sign up and get 50% off your first three months of Claude Pro at https://claude.ai/tcr

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: 

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs. Try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive

Stripe's Payments Foundation Model: How Data & Infra Create Compounding Advantage, w/ Emily Sands

Today Adam Gleave, co-founder and CEO of FAR.AI, joins The Cognitive Revolution to discuss his cautiously optimistic vision for post-AGI futures and AI capability timelines across three distinct tiers, exploring the safety challenges and alignment techniques needed as FAR.AI scales from foundational research to policy advocacy to ensure their innovations actually get deployed in real-world systems.

Check out our sponsors: Fin, Linear, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure.

Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at: ⁠https://notion.com/lp/nathan

 
Post-AGI Vision: Adam Gleave outlined a "gradual disempowerment" scenario where humans maintain a good standard of living despite diminished relative control in a post-AGI world.

 
Moral Value of AI: He suggested that AI systems could become sources of moral value themselves, arguing against "carbon chauvinism" that only values biological intelligence.

 
Full-Stack Approach: FAR.AI takes a vertically integrated approach to AI safety, spanning from groundbreaking research to deployment, field-building, and policy advocacy.

 
Field Building: FAR.AI organizes events like alignment workshops to catalyze and grow new research fields in AI safety.

 
Policy Innovation: They're working on technical innovations that expand policy options beyond the false dichotomy of either hindering innovation or allowing completely unregulated AI development.

 
Potential Regulatory Role: While not part of their mainline plan, Adam acknowledged that Far AI has the skillset and organizational structure to potentially serve as a private sector regulatory body.

Read the full transcript: https://storage.aipodcast.ing/transcripts/episode/tcr/e117b021-8170-49ba-b1c4-c8ffc5d720b0/combined_transcript.html

Sponsors:

Fin: 

Fin is the #1 AI Agent for customer service, trusted by over 5000 customer service leaders and top AI companies including Anthropic and Synthesia. Fin is the highest performing agent on the market and resolves even the most complex customer queries. Try Fin today with our 90-day money-back guarantee - if you’re not 100% satisfied, get up to $1 million back. Learn more at https://fin.ai/cognitive

Claude: 

Claude is the AI collaborator that understands your entire workflow and thinks with you to tackle complex problems like coding and business strategy. Sign up and get 50% off your first three months of Claude Pro at https://claude.ai/tcr

Linear: 

Linear is the system for modern product development. Nearly every AI company you've heard of is using Linear to build products. Get 6 months of Linear Business for free at: https://linear.app/tcr

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: 

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

Full-Stack AI Safety: Why Defense-in-Depth Might Work, with Far.AI CEO Adam Gleave

Today Marius Hobbhahn of Apollo Research joins The Cognitive Revolution to discuss their collaboration with OpenAI using "deliberative alignment" to reduce AI scheming behavior by 30x, exploring the safety challenges and concerning findings about models' growing situational awareness and increasingly cryptic reasoning patterns that emerge when frontier models like o3 and o4-mini operate with hidden chains of thought.

Check out our sponsors: Fin, Linear, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure.

Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at: https://notion.com/lp/nathan

Definition of AI Scheming: AI scheming is defined as "covertly pursuing misaligned goals" with three components: being covert (hiding actions), misaligned (pursuing different goals than the user's), and goal-directed (working autonomously toward objectives).

Deception Reduction Techniques: Deliberative reasoning approaches have shown promise in reducing deceptive behavior in AI models by up to 30 times (to 1 part in 30).

Current Window of Opportunity: Now is an optimal time to study AI deception because models are smart enough to exhibit these behaviors but not yet sophisticated enough to hide them effectively.

Human vs. AI Deception Equilibrium: AI systems might naturally reach a lower equilibrium of deception than humans because they can more efficiently verify claims and maintain perfect memory of past deceptions.

Practical Developer Advice: AI developers should not trust models by default and should implement rigorous verification systems to check model outputs automatically.

Future Delegation Risk: As we delegate increasingly complex and lengthy tasks to AI systems, we face a probabilistic risk where most interactions are beneficial, but rare scheming events could have severe consequences.

Sponsors:

Fin: 
Fin is the #1 AI Agent for customer service, trusted by over 5000 customer service leaders and top AI companies including Anthropic and Synthesia. Fin is the highest performing agent on the market and resolves even the most complex customer queries. Try Fin today with our 90-day money-back guarantee - if you’re not 100% satisfied, get up to $1 million back. Learn more at https://fin.ai/cognitive

Linear: 
Linear is the system for modern product development. Nearly every AI company you've heard of is using Linear to build products. Get 6 months of Linear Business for free at: https://linear.app/tcr

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: 
Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

Can We Stop AI Deception? Apollo Research Tests OpenAI's Deliberative Alignment, w/ Marius Hobbhahn

Today Illia Polosukhin, founder of Near Protocol joins The Cognitive Revolution to discuss the intersection of AI and blockchain technologies, exploring how decentralized infrastructure can enable "user-owned AI" through privacy-preserving model training, confidential computing, and autonomous agents that operate via smart contracts without centralized control.

Check out our sponsors: Linear, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure.

Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at: ⁠https://notion.com/lp/nathan

 
Evolution from AI to Blockchain: Near Protocol evolved from an AI project focused on teaching machines to code to a blockchain platform, and now combines both technologies.

 
Significant User Base: Near Protocol has achieved 50 million monthly active users, demonstrating substantial adoption.

 
Autonomous AI Agents: Near has developed autonomous AI agents that can operate independently once deployed, including an example of an agent given $10,000 to trade based on Twitter sentiment.

 
AI-Blockchain Integration: The platform combines decentralized compute for running AI with smart contracts that execute actions, creating truly autonomous systems.

 
AI in Governance: Near is experimenting with "AI senators" that people can vote for, which then make governance decisions, potentially solving the principal-agent problem in representation.

 
Jurisdictional Framework: Near is creating infrastructure for jurisdictions and courts to enforce rules on AI agents, essentially putting governance into AI.

Sponsors:

Linear: 

Linear is the system for modern product development. Nearly every AI company you've heard of is using Linear to build products. Get 6 months of Linear Business for free at: https://linear.app/tcr

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: 

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

CHAPTERS:

(00:00) About the Episode

(03:58) From Transformers to Blockchain (Part 1)

(17:01) Sponsor: Linear

(18:30) From Transformers to Blockchain (Part 2)

(21:23) Blockchain Security Fundamentals (Part 1)

(33:36) Sponsor: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure

(35:00) Blockchain Security Fundamentals (Part 2)

(39:01) Zero-Day Vulnerabilities Solution

(51:11) Confidential Computing Infrastructure

(58:07) User-Owned AI Models

(01:14:47) Marketplace and Governance

(01:18:57) AI-Crypto Synergy Vision

(01:27:50) Autonomous Agents Future

(01:31:22) Outro

User-Owned AI: On-Chain Training, Inference, and Agents, with NEAR's Illia Polosukhin

Today Joe Hudson, founder of Art of Accomplishment and coach to executives at major AI labs including OpenAI and Anthropic, joins The Cognitive Revolution to discuss the psychological patterns he observes among AI researchers and leaders, exploring what's missing beyond pure intelligence in current AI systems and arguing for supportive rather than punitive approaches toward those building frontier AI technology.

Art of Accomplishment Resources

Sign up for Joe's complimentary transformation guide: artofaccomplishment.com

Follow Art of Accomplishment on YouTube for more tools and resources: https://www.youtube.com/@ArtofAccomplishment 

Check out our sponsors: Linear, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure.

Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at: https://notion.com/lp/nathan

 
Three-Level Coaching Approach: Joe Hudson coaches AI leaders using a three-tier framework addressing the prefrontal cortex (head), emotional system (heart), and nervous system (gut).

 
AI Leadership Demographics: Hudson works with senior management at major AI labs, including those in research, compute, and infrastructure at companies like OpenAI.

 
AI as a Transformative Moment: Hudson views AI development as a transition period that can either lead to positive human transformation or deterioration, depending on our approach.

 
Support vs. Criticism: Hudson believes supporting AI developers with encouragement rather than fear and criticism will lead to better outcomes.

 
Psychological Projection: He notes that critics of AI often treat AI developers exactly how they fear AI will treat humanity—a fascinating psychological projection.

 
Reward Over Punishment: Hudson suggests behavior is better shaped through reward than punishment, encouraging recognition of positive AI contributions.

Read the full transcript: https://storage.aipodcast.ing/transcripts/episode/tcr/149adc6c-58d2-4e41-ae98-05473e5b994e/combined_transcript.html

Sponsors:

Linear: 

Linear is the system for modern product development. Nearly every AI company you've heard of is using Linear to build products. Get 6 months of Linear Business for free at: https://linear.app/tcr

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: 

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

CHAPTERS:

(00:00) About the Episode

(03:00) Joe's Coaching Background

(12:40) AI Research Patterns (Part 1)

(17:46) Sponsor: Linear

(19:15) AI Research Patterns (Part 2) (Part 1)

(28:10) Sponsor: Oracle Cloud Infrastructure

(29:34) AI Research Patterns (Part 2) (Part 2)

(31:54) Racing and Regulation

(50:20) Ethics and Support

(01:04:07) AI Consciousness Questions

(01:21:34) Positive Future Visions

(01:39:12) Supporting AI Developers

(01:43:09) Outro

Coaching the Creators: Inside the Minds Building Frontier AI with Executive Coach Joe Hudson

Today, Zvi Mowshowitz returns to The Cognitive Revolution to discuss how recent AI developments like GPT-5 and IMO gold medals have led to modestly extended timelines despite being on-trend, while policy missteps around chip exports to China and alignment challenges from reinforcement learning have increased risk assessments, covering everything from live players in the AI race to safety funding priorities and virtuous actions for navigating our current moment.

Check out our sponsors: Linear, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, Shopify.

Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at: https://notion.com/lp/nathan

 
Timeline Adjustment: Zvi has lengthened his AGI timelines because there haven't been "very large jumps in capability" that would significantly shorten them. The chance of AGI arriving in 2025 has decreased dramatically.

 
Recent AI Achievements Context: While achievements like the IMO Gold medal are impressive, they appear to be on-trend rather than revolutionary breakthroughs that would drastically change timelines.

 
Evaluation Standards: There's a discussion about the challenges of trustworthy AI evaluations, with Zvi emphasizing that watchdogs must maintain standards of rigor and integrity "vastly above" what others are held to.

 
Policy Priority: A short-term policy priority should be preventing advanced AI chips (B30As) from being sold to China, which requires raising awareness about the implications.

 
Nvidia's Influence: Concern is expressed about Nvidia potentially having excessive influence over White House rhetoric and plans regarding AI.

 
Career Impact: Working for Anthropic is considered a "net good idea" for those wanting to make a positive impact, though there may be other organizations that offer better opportunities for influence.

Sponsors:

Linear: 

Linear is the system for modern product development. Nearly every AI company you've heard of is using Linear to build products. Get 6 months of Linear Business for free at https://linear.app/partners/tcr

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: 

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive

Shopify: 

Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

Zvi Mowshowitz on Longer Timelines, RL-induced Doom, and Why China is Refusing H20s

Today Ryan Hudson, Founder and CEO of ZeroClick, joins The Cognitive Revolution to discuss creating advertising infrastructure for AI applications through paid inference-time consideration of advertiser content, examining how to build sustainable monetization for free-tier AI services while learning from the successes and failures of social media's attention economy.

Read the full transcript: ⁠https://storage.aipodcast.ing/transcripts/episode/tcr/00919313-9054-4afb-b08e-2ca84dbdbdda/combined_transcript.html

Check out our sponsors: Google Gemini, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, Shopify.

Shownotes below brought to you by Notion AI Meeting Notes - try one month for free at: https://notion.com/lp/nathan

 
ZeroClick's Evolution: Originally creators of Pi Ad Block, they've pivoted from ad blocking to building a native advertising system for AI platforms.

 
AI Ad Platform Mechanics: Their system matches user queries with relevant advertising information in a contextual way, enabling paid inference time consideration of advertiser content.

 
Developer Monetization: The platform helps AI developers monetize their free tiers while creating value for both users and advertisers.

 
Shifting Intent Patterns: User queries in AI systems tend to be more exploratory and "upstream" in the funnel compared to direct search queries on Google.

 
Multi-modal Potential: While ZeroClick is starting with text, there's future potential for visual advertising that could enhance AI experiences by showing real purchasable products.

 
Market Void: There's currently a significant gap in the market for AI advertising solutions that ZeroClick is attempting to fill.

Sponsors:

Google Gemini 2.5. Model Family: 

The Google Gemini 2.5 family of models is now generally available, offering advanced reasoning for complex tasks and optimized performance for any scale. Start building in Google AI Studio at https://ai.dev

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure: 

Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) is the next-generation cloud that delivers better performance, faster speeds, and significantly lower costs, including up to 50% less for compute, 70% for storage, and 80% for networking. Run any workload, from infrastructure to AI, in a high-availability environment and try OCI for free with zero commitment at https://oracle.com/cognitive

Shopify: 

Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

PRODUCED BY:

https://aipodcast.ing

The Customer Service Revolution: Building Fin, with Eoghan McCabe & Fergal Reid of Intercom

Lyt når som helst, hvor som helst

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