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Real Vision Podcast Network

Raoul Pal: The Journey Man

🔥 *The Future of Finance is HERE: Join the waitlist* https://rvtv.io/3IQ5Bs6

⚪ Jordi Visser, founder and chief strategist at Visser Labs, joins Raoul Pal to dive deep into the collision of AI, macroeconomics, and markets — exploring how exponential innovation is reshaping labor, inflation, and global growth. From the Fed’s pivot to the coming $5 trillion AI buildout, they reveal why energy, stablecoins, and humanoids could define the next decade of investing. Recorded on October 29, 2025.
⚪ X: @jvisserlabs

📣 This episode is brought to you by Figure, the platform to Earn and Borrow. Need liquidity without selling your crypto? Figure offers Crypto-Backed Loans, allowing you to borrow against your Bitcoin or Ethereum with 12-month terms and no prepayment penalties. They have the lowest rates in the industry at 8.91%, allowing you to access instant cash or buy more Bitcoin without triggering a tax event. You can always see your BTC ownership in your FM account and verify holdings in your personal BTC vault onchain. Unlock your crypto’s potential today. 
👉 Visit their app to apply for a Crypto Backed Loan today https://figuremarkets.onelink.me/Plnq/2uhuytay

📣 Bitwise has been all-in on crypto since 2017 and has more than 20 crypto-based products to help investors get the access they need. Bitwise manages the world’s largest crypto index fund, one of the top Bitcoin ETFs, and one of the largest institutional Ethereum staking solutions. Bitwise has over $10 billion in assets under management and employs over 100 people in the US and Europe to manage a range of products, including ETFs, private alpha strategies, and SMAs for large investors. 
👉 Check out Bitwise at https://bitwiseinvestments.com and let them know that Real Vision mentioned them. Carefully consider the extreme risks associated with crypto before investing.

📣 Today’s sponsor is Plus500 US. Take your trading to the next level with cross-market contracts, from precious metals to key indices, and more. Whether you’re a seasoned trader in the Futures arena or brand new, Plus500’s user-friendly trading platform offers you the advanced tools, market insights, and quick execution you’ve been looking for.

👉 Get started with Plus500 for as little as $100 at https://us.plus500.com. Trading in futures involves the risk of loss.

Unlock the potential to showcase your brand to our global audience. Contact us at partnerships@realvision.com for advertising inquiries. 

🍌 Get your Banana Zone swag at the Real Vision merch store: https://shop.realvision.com

Connect with me:
Twitter (X): https://twitter.com/RaoulGMI 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/raoulgmi/ 
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/raoul-pal-real-vision/ 

My other work:
Real Vision: https://rvtv.io/3LHYIaH 
Global Macro Investor: https://globalmacroinvestor.com
The Exponentialist: https://realvision.com/thefuture
EXPAAM: https://expaam.com

Connect with Real Vision™:
Twitter: https://rvtv.io/twitter
Instagram: https://rvtv.io/instagram
Get a FREE membership: https://rvtv.io/3Y4t5Pw

Disclaimer: https://media.realvision.com/wp/20231004185303/Disclaimer-1.pdf
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The End of Recessions is Closer Than You Think ft. Jordi Visser

🔥 *The Future of Finance is HERE: Join the waitlist* https://rvtv.io/3IQ5Bs6

Join us as we revisit the best moments from The Journey Man throughout October. From deep macro insights to bold crypto predictions and breakthrough tech trends, Raoul Pal takes us on a thought-provoking ride across standout episodes:

⚪ Micky Malka

⚪ Andreas Steno

⚪ Mike Novogratz

⚪ Drinks With Raoul

⚪ Dan Morehead

Unlock the potential to showcase your brand to our global audience. Contact us at partnerships@realvision.com for advertising inquiries. 

🍌 Get your Banana Zone swag at the Real Vision merch store: https://shop.realvision.com

Connect with me:
Twitter (X): https://twitter.com/RaoulGMI 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/raoulgmi/ 
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/raoul-pal-real-vision/ 

My other work:
Real Vision: https://rvtv.io/3LHYIaH 
Global Macro Investor: https://globalmacroinvestor.com
The Exponentialist: https://realvision.com/thefuture
EXPAAM: https://expaam.com

Connect with Real Vision™:
Twitter: https://rvtv.io/twitter
Instagram: https://rvtv.io/instagram
Get a FREE membership: https://rvtv.io/3Y4t5Pw

Disclaimer: https://media.realvision.com/wp/20231004185303/Disclaimer-1.pdf

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

October 2025: Raoul Pal The Journey Man's Monthly Recap

🔥 The Future of Finance is HERE: Join the waitlist: https://rvtv.io/4mIxWi8

⚪ Raoul Pal welcomes Emad Mostaque, co-founder of Stability AI and author of "The Last Economy," back to explore how AI is triggering the Economic Singularity. They discuss the potential for a deflationary shock, the rise of digital assets, and the collapse of traditional economic models as humanity transitions from a scarcity-based system to one driven by abundance and machine intelligence. Recorded on October 13, 2025
⚪ X: @EMostaque

📣 This episode is brought to you by Figure, the platform to Earn and Borrow. Need liquidity without selling your crypto? Figure offers Crypto-Backed Loans, allowing you to borrow against your Bitcoin or Ethereum with 12-month terms and no prepayment penalties. They have the lowest rates in the industry at 8.91%, allowing you to access instant cash or buy more Bitcoin without triggering a tax event. You can always see your BTC ownership in your FM account and verify holdings in your personal BTC vault onchain. Unlock your crypto’s potential today. 👉 Visit their app to apply for a Crypto Backed Loan today ⁠⁠⁠https://figuremarkets.onelink.me/Plnq/2uhuytay⁠⁠⁠

📣 Bitwise has been all-in on crypto since 2017 and has more than 20 crypto-based products to help investors get the access they need. Bitwise manages the world’s largest crypto index fund, one of the top Bitcoin ETFs, and one of the largest institutional Ethereum staking solutions. Bitwise has over $10 billion in assets under management and employs over 100 people in the US and Europe to manage a range of products, including ETFs, private alpha strategies, and SMAs for large investors. 
👉 Check out Bitwise at ⁠⁠⁠https://bitwiseinvestments.com⁠⁠⁠ and let them know that Real Vision mentioned them. Carefully consider the extreme risks associated with crypto before investing.

📣 Today’s sponsor is Plus500 US. Take your trading to the next level with cross-market contracts, from precious metals to key indices, and more. Whether you’re a seasoned trader in the Futures arena or brand new, Plus500’s user-friendly trading platform offers you the advanced tools, market insights, and quick execution you’ve been looking for.
👉 Get started with Plus500 for as little as $100 at ⁠⁠⁠https://us.plus500.com⁠⁠⁠. Trading in futures involves the risk of loss.

📣 Ready to see how Square can transform your business? 
👉 Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠square.com/go/realvision⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! #squarepod

Unlock the potential to showcase your brand to our global audience. Contact us at partnerships@realvision.com for advertising inquiries. 

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Last Economy: Predicting the AI-Driven World

🔥 *The future of finance is here... Join the waitlist:* 
⁠⁠https://rvtv.io/4mIxWi8⁠⁠

⚪ Raoul Pal welcomes Dan Morehead, CEO and founder of Pantera Capital for a wide-ranging interview covering everything from the macro big picture to the tokenization of everything. Recorded on October 10, 2025.
⚪ X: @dan_pantera

📣 This episode is brought to you by Figure, the platform to Earn and Borrow. Need liquidity without selling your crypto? Figure offers Crypto-Backed Loans, allowing you to borrow against your Bitcoin or Ethereum with 12-month terms and no prepayment penalties. They have the lowest rates in the industry at 8.91%, allowing you to access instant cash or buy more Bitcoin without triggering a tax event. You can always see your BTC ownership in your FM account and verify holdings in your personal BTC vault onchain. Unlock your crypto’s potential today. 👉 Visit their app to apply for a Crypto Backed Loan today ⁠⁠https://figuremarkets.onelink.me/Plnq/2uhuytay⁠⁠

📣 Bitwise has been all-in on crypto since 2017 and has more than 20 crypto-based products to help investors get the access they need. Bitwise manages the world’s largest crypto index fund, one of the top Bitcoin ETFs, and one of the largest institutional Ethereum staking solutions. Bitwise has over $10 billion in assets under management and employs over 100 people in the US and Europe to manage a range of products, including ETFs, private alpha strategies, and SMAs for large investors. 
👉 Check out Bitwise at ⁠⁠https://bitwiseinvestments.com⁠⁠ and let them know that Real Vision mentioned them. Carefully consider the extreme risks associated with crypto before investing.

📣 Today’s sponsor is Plus500 US. Take your trading to the next level with cross-market contracts, from precious metals to key indices, and more. Whether you’re a seasoned trader in the Futures arena or brand new, Plus500’s user-friendly trading platform offers you the advanced tools, market insights, and quick execution you’ve been looking for.
👉 Get started with Plus500 for as little as $100 at ⁠⁠https://us.plus500.com⁠⁠. Trading in futures involves the risk of loss.

📣 Ready to see how Square can transform your business? 
👉 Visit ⁠⁠⁠square.com/go/realvision⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! #squarepod

Unlock the potential to showcase your brand to our global audience. Contact us at partnerships@realvision.com for advertising inquiries. 

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why It’s Still Early for Institutional Crypto Adoption ft. Dan Morehead

🔥 The new Real Vision is around the corner... Join the waitlist https://rvtv.io/4nd7U7A

🔥 *Join FREE today and access the exclusive Q&A with Raoul:* https://rvtv.io/41fVHWF. 

In Round 19 of Drinks With Raoul, RV co-founder and CEO Raoul Pal digs into the recent crypto flash crash — what triggered it, the market implications, and how the current dynamics fit into the bigger macro picture. Is the Banana Zone over? Raoul calls it how he sees it, breaking down trends in global liquidity, interest rates, and other hidden market drivers. As always, nothing’s off the table when the wine corks pop — so grab a drink and join the conversation in the live chat…!

*note from Raoul: I will give away $2,000 in USDC to one lucky winner in today's show... please be prepared and complete all the steps in my giveaway post on X* https://x.com/RaoulGMI/status/1980774091859677525

This is Raoul unfiltered — dishing a healthy dose of cultural riffs, travel tales, and maybe even a wine rec or two alongside his expert analysis. 

📣 Ready to see how Square can transform your business? 
👉 Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠square.com/go/realvision⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! #squarepod

Unlock the potential to showcase your brand to our global audience. Contact us at partnerships@realvision.com for advertising inquiries. 

Connect with me:
Twitter (X): https://twitter.com/RaoulGMI 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/raoulgmi/ 
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/raoul-pal-real-vision/ 

My other work:
Real Vision: https://rvtv.io/3LHYIaH 
Global Macro Investor: https://globalmacroinvestor.com
The Exponentiliast https://realvision/thefuture
EXPAAM: https://expaam.com

Disclaimer: https://media.realvision.com/wp/20231004185303/Disclaimer-1.pdf

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

🔴 Flash Crash URGENT Update: Drinks With Raoul Pal (Round 19)

🔥 *The future of finance is here... Join the waitlist:* 
⁠https://rvtv.io/4mIxWi8⁠

⚪ Raoul Pal sits down with long-time fan favorite Mike Novogratz, CEO of Galaxy Digital, to discuss the strange macro backdrop of strong growth, rising debt, and political chaos as the U.S. moves toward easier monetary policy — creating what he sees as the setup for a major risk-asset melt-up. He also reveals how Galaxy Digital is evolving from crypto finance into AI-driven infrastructure and tokenization, arguing that regulation, DeFi, and institutional adoption will unleash the next phase of the digital-asset revolution. Recorded on October 7, 2025.

⚪ Follow Mike Novogratz on X: @novogratz

📣 This episode is brought to you by Figure, the platform to Earn and Borrow. Need liquidity without selling your crypto? Figure offers Crypto-Backed Loans, allowing you to borrow against your Bitcoin or Ethereum with 12-month terms and no prepayment penalties. They have the lowest rates in the industry at 8.91%, allowing you to access instant cash or buy more Bitcoin without triggering a tax event. You can always see your BTC ownership in your FM account and verify holdings in your personal BTC vault onchain. Unlock your crypto’s potential today. 👉 Visit their app to apply for a Crypto Backed Loan today ⁠https://figuremarkets.onelink.me/Plnq/2uhuytay⁠

📣 Bitwise has been all-in on crypto since 2017 and has more than 20 crypto-based products to help investors get the access they need. Bitwise manages the world’s largest crypto index fund, one of the top Bitcoin ETFs, and one of the largest institutional Ethereum staking solutions. Bitwise has over $10 billion in assets under management and employs over 100 people in the US and Europe to manage a range of products, including ETFs, private alpha strategies, and SMAs for large investors. 
👉 Check out Bitwise at ⁠https://bitwiseinvestments.com⁠ and let them know that Real Vision mentioned them. Carefully consider the extreme risks associated with crypto before investing.

📣 Today’s sponsor is Plus500 US. Take your trading to the next level with cross-market contracts, from precious metals to key indices, and more. Whether you’re a seasoned trader in the Futures arena or brand new, Plus500’s user-friendly trading platform offers you the advanced tools, market insights, and quick execution you’ve been looking for.
👉 Get started with Plus500 for as little as $100 at ⁠https://us.plus500.com⁠. Trading in futures involves the risk of loss.

📣 Ready to see how Square can transform your business? 
👉 Visit ⁠⁠square.com/go/realvision⁠⁠ to learn more! #squarepod

Unlock the potential to showcase your brand to our global audience. Contact us at partnerships@realvision.com for advertising inquiries. 

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mike Novogratz: How Tokenization Will Redefine Wall Street Forever

🔥 *The future of finance is here... Join the waitlist:* 
https://rvtv.io/4mIxWi8

⚪ Raoul Pal and Andreas Steno dive deep into the new macro regime — where liquidity, policy, and technology intersect to drive the next great investment cycle. They unpack how private credit creation, AI-driven CapEx, energy transitions, and the “debasement trade” across gold, crypto, and equities will reshape global markets in 2026 and beyond. 
Recorded on October 3, 2025.
⚪ Follow Andreas Steno on X: @AndreasSteno

📣 This episode is brought to you by Figure, the platform to Earn and Borrow. Need liquidity without selling your crypto? Figure offers Crypto-Backed Loans, allowing you to borrow against your Bitcoin or Ethereum with 12-month terms and no prepayment penalties. They have the lowest rates in the industry at 8.91%, allowing you to access instant cash or buy more Bitcoin without triggering a tax event. You can always see your BTC ownership in your FM account and verify holdings in your personal BTC vault onchain. Unlock your crypto’s potential today. 👉 Visit their app to apply for a Crypto Backed Loan today https://figuremarkets.onelink.me/Plnq/2uhuytay

📣 Bitwise has been all-in on crypto since 2017 and has more than 20 crypto-based products to help investors get the access they need. Bitwise manages the world’s largest crypto index fund, one of the top Bitcoin ETFs, and one of the largest institutional Ethereum staking solutions. Bitwise has over $10 billion in assets under management and employs over 100 people in the US and Europe to manage a range of products, including ETFs, private alpha strategies, and SMAs for large investors. 
👉 Check out Bitwise at https://bitwiseinvestments.com and let them know that Real Vision mentioned them. Carefully consider the extreme risks associated with crypto before investing.

📣 Today’s sponsor is Plus500 US. Take your trading to the next level with cross-market contracts, from precious metals to key indices, and more. Whether you’re a seasoned trader in the Futures arena or brand new, Plus500’s user-friendly trading platform offers you the advanced tools, market insights, and quick execution you’ve been looking for.
👉 Get started with Plus500 for as little as $100 at https://us.plus500.com. Trading in futures involves the risk of loss.

📣 Ready to see how Square can transform your business? 
👉 Visit ⁠square.com/go/realvision⁠ to learn more! #squarepod

Unlock the potential to showcase your brand to our global audience. Contact us at partnerships@realvision.com for advertising inquiries. 

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Equities Are Back, Baby...! ft. Andreas Steno

🔥 *Download Raoul Pal's 5-year investing roadmap for free:* https://rvtv.io/41fVHWF

Raoul Pal welcomes Micky Malka, founder of Ribbit Capital, for a wide-ranging conversation on everything from Micky’s experience building brokerages in South America to backing FinTech giants like Robinhood and Coinbase. Plus, they explore how tokenization, AI, and digital assets are converging to reshape money. Recorded on September 19, 2025.
Twitter (X): @mickymalka

📣 This episode is brought to you by Figure, the platform to Earn and Borrow. Need liquidity without selling your crypto? Figure offers Crypto-Backed Loans, allowing you to borrow against your Bitcoin or Ethereum with 12-month terms and no prepayment penalties. They have the lowest rates in the industry at 8.91%, allowing you to access instant cash or buy more Bitcoin without triggering a tax event. You can always see your BTC ownership in your FM account and verify holdings in your personal BTC vault onchain. Unlock your crypto’s potential today. 👉 Visit their app to apply for a Crypto Backed Loan today https://figuremarkets.onelink.me/Plnq/2uhuytay

📣 Bitwise has been all-in on crypto since 2017 and has more than 20 crypto-based products to help investors get the access they need. Bitwise manages the world’s largest crypto index fund, one of the top Bitcoin ETFs, and one of the largest institutional Ethereum staking solutions. Bitwise has over $10 billion in assets under management and employs over 100 people in the US and Europe to manage a range of products, including ETFs, private alpha strategies, and SMAs for large investors. 
👉 Check out Bitwise at https://bitwiseinvestments.com and let them know that Real Vision mentioned them. Carefully consider the extreme risks associated with crypto before investing.

📣 Today’s sponsor is Plus500 US. Take your trading to the next level with cross-market contracts, from precious metals to key indices, and more. Whether you’re a seasoned trader in the Futures arena or brand new, Plus500’s user-friendly trading platform offers you the advanced tools, market insights, and quick execution you’ve been looking for.

👉 Get started with Plus500 for as little as $100 at https://us.plus500.com. Trading in futures involves the risk of loss.

Ready to see how Square can transform your business? Visit square.com/go/realvision to learn more! #squarepod

Unlock the potential to showcase your brand to our global audience. Contact us at partnerships@realvision.com for advertising inquiries. 

🍌 Get your Banana Zone swag at the Real Vision merch store: https://shop.realvision.com

Connect with me:
Twitter (X): https://twitter.com/RaoulGMI 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/raoulgmi/ 
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/raoul-pal-real-vision/ 

My other work:
Real Vision: https://rvtv.io/3LHYIaH 
Global Macro Investor: https://globalmacroinvestor.com
The Exponentialist: https://realvision.com/thefuture
EXPAAM: https://expaam.com

Connect with Real Vision™:
Twitter: https://rvtv.io/twitter
Instagram: https://rvtv.io/instagram
Get a FREE membership: https://rvtv.io/3Y4t5Pw

Disclaimer: https://media.realvision.com/wp/20231004185303/Disclaimer-1.pdf
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

AI + Crypto: Building the New Internet of Money ft. Micky Malka

🔥 *Download Raoul Pal's 5-year investing roadmap for free:* https://rvtv.io/41fVHWF

Join us as we revisit the best moments from The Journey Man throughout September. From deep macro insights to bold crypto predictions and breakthrough tech trends, Raoul Pal takes us on a thought-provoking ride across standout episodes:

⚪ Michael Howell: Mike Howell RETURNS: The Dollar Fix Is In — The Playbook for Gold, Tech & Bitcoin

⚪ Jamie Coutts: Is Bitcoin Giving Way to Altcoin Season?

⚪ Emmett Hollyer: Why Solana Built a Smartphone (And Why it Might Work)

⚪ Keith Grossman: The Golden Age of Crypto Has Begun

Unlock the potential to showcase your brand to our global audience. Contact us at partnerships@realvision.com for advertising inquiries. 

🍌 Get your Banana Zone swag at the Real Vision merch store: https://shop.realvision.com

Connect with me:
Twitter (X): https://twitter.com/RaoulGMI 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/raoulgmi/ 
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/raoul-pal-real-vision/ 

My other work:
Real Vision: https://rvtv.io/3LHYIaH 
Global Macro Investor: https://globalmacroinvestor.com
The Exponentialist: https://realvision.com/thefuture
EXPAAM: https://expaam.com

Connect with Real Vision™:
Twitter: https://rvtv.io/twitter
Instagram: https://rvtv.io/instagram
Get a FREE membership: https://rvtv.io/3Y4t5Pw

Disclaimer: https://media.realvision.com/wp/20231004185303/Disclaimer-1.pdf

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

September 2025: Raoul Pal The Journey Man's Monthly Recap

🔥 The new Real Vision is around the corner... Join the waitlist https://rvtv.io/4nd7U7A

🔥 Join FREE today and access the exclusive Q&A with Raoul and Julien: https://rvtv.io/41fVHWF. 

In this very special edition of The Journey Man, Raoul Pal welcomes GMI head of macro research Julien Bittel for a live presentation of the Everything Code, their big picture thesis on the macro forces that will drive markets for years to come. Then, Raoul and Julien take questions directly from viewers on the platform.

📣 This episode is brought to you by Figure, the platform to Earn and Borrow. Need liquidity without selling your crypto? Figure offers Crypto-Backed Loans, allowing you to borrow against your Bitcoin or Ethereum with 12-month terms and no prepayment penalties. They have the lowest rates in the industry at 8.91%, allowing you to access instant cash or buy more Bitcoin without triggering a tax event. You can always see your BTC ownership in your FM account and verify holdings in your personal BTC vault onchain. Unlock your crypto’s potential today. 👉 Visit their app to apply for a Crypto Backed Loan today https://figuremarkets.onelink.me/Plnq...

📣 Bitwise has been all-in on crypto since 2017 and has more than 20 crypto-based products to help investors get the access they need. Bitwise manages the world’s largest crypto index fund, one of the top Bitcoin ETFs, and one of the largest institutional Ethereum staking solutions. Bitwise has over $10 billion in assets under management and employs over 100 people in the US and Europe to manage a range of products, including ETFs, private alpha strategies, and SMAs for large investors. 
👉 Check out Bitwise at https://bitwiseinvestments.com and let them know that Real Vision mentioned them. Carefully consider the extreme risks associated with crypto before investing.

📣 Stake $VET on StarGate, VeChain’s new user-friendly staking platform, to earn your share of the 5.48 billion $VTHO bonus pool being distributed to stakers through to December. To get started, stake at least 10,000 $VET, mint a Delegator NFT, and collect $VTHO rewards every seven days. The earlier you stake, the more you stand to earn, so visit https://app.stargate.vechain.org/?utm... today to put your $VET to work.

👉 Unlock your crypto’s potential today—use this link to apply for a Crypto Backed Loan today! https://figure.com/realvision

📣 Today’s sponsor is Plus500 US. Take your trading to the next level with cross-market contracts, from precious metals to key indices, and more. Whether you’re a seasoned trader in the Futures arena or brand new, Plus500’s user-friendly trading platform offers you the advanced tools, market insights, and quick execution you’ve been looking for.

👉 Get started with Plus500 for as little as $100 at https://us.plus500.com. Trading in futures involves the risk of loss.

Unlock the potential to showcase your brand to our global audience. Contact us at partnerships@realvision.com for advertising inquiries. 

Connect with me:
Twitter (X): / raoulgmi 
Instagram: / raoulgmi 
LinkedIn: / raoul-pal-real-vision 

My other work:
Real Vision: https://rvtv.io/3LHYIaH 
Global Macro Investor: https://globalmacroinvestor.com
The Exponentiliast https://realvision/thefuture
EXPAAM: https://expaam.com

Disclaimer: https://media.realvision.com/wp/20231...

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

October 2025: Raoul Pal The Journey Man's Monthly Recap

Lyt når som helst, hvor som helst

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