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Freakonomics Radio + Stitcher

Freakonomics co-author Stephen J. Dubner uncovers the hidden side of everything. Why is it safer to fly in an airplane than drive a car? How do we decide whom to marry? Why is the media so full of bad news? Also: things you never knew you wanted to know about wolves, bananas, pollution, search engines, and the quirks of human behavior.

To get every show in the Freakonomics Radio Network without ads and a monthly bonus episode of Freakonomics Radio, start a free trial for SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus.

Freakonomics Radio

Flying in the U.S. is still exceptionally safe, but the system relies on outdated tech and is under tremendous strain. Six experts tell us how it got this way and how it can (maybe) be fixed. (Part one of a two-part series.)

 

SOURCES:Dorothy Robyn • , senior fellow at I.T.I.F.
Ed Bastian • , C.E.O. of Delta Airlines.
John Strong • , professor of finance and economics at the William and Mary School of Business.
 • Kenneth Levin, retired air traffic controller.
Polly Trottenberg • , former deputy secretary of the U.S. Department of Transportation.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Brand New Air Traffic Control System Plan," • (
Federal Aviation Administration, • 2025).
The Air Traffic Controller Workforce Imperative: Staffing Models and Their Implementation to Ensure Safe and Efficient Airspace Operations, • by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine (2025).
 • "
Annual Aviation Infrastructure Report: 2025 • ," by Marc Scribner 
(Reason Foundation, • 2025).
 • "
New air traffic academy died in Congress despite dire need for more staff • ," by Lori Aratani 
(The Washington Post, • 2025).
 • "
The Real Problem With the FAA • ," by Dorothy Robyn 
(The Atlantic, • 2025).
 • "
How Much Do Jet Aircraft Pay into the Airport and Airway Trust Fund to Fly from Dallas to D.C.?" • by Ann Henebery, (
Eno Center for Transportation • , 2018).
Managing the Skies, • by John Strong and Clinton Oster (2016).

 

EXTRAS: • "
Freakonomics Radio Takes to the Skies • ," series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2023).
 • "
In Praise of Maintenance • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio ( • 2016).

645. Is the Air Traffic Control System Broken?

Patrick Deneen, a political philosopher at Notre Dame, says yes. He was a Democrat for years, and has now come to be seen as an “ideological guru” of the Trump administration. But that only tells half the story ...

 

SOURCES:Patrick Deneen • , professor of political science at the University of Notre Dame.

 

RESOURCES: • "
The Ideological Gurus Battling for the Soul of Trump World • ," by Joshua Chaffin and Zusha Elinson 
(Wall Street Journal, • 2025).
 • "
Why the MAGA-DOGE coalition will hold • ," by Patrick Deneen 
(UnHerd, • 2025).
 • "
‘I Don’t Want to Violently Overthrow the Government. I Want Something Far More Revolutionary • ,’" by Ian Ward 
(POLITICO, • 2023).
Regime Change: Toward a Postliberal Future, • by Patrick Deneen (2023).
Why Liberalism Failed, • by Patrick Deneen (2018).

 

EXTRAS: • "
In Search of the Real Adam Smith • ," series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2022).

644. Has America Lost Its Appetite for the Common Good?

Bjørn Andersen has killed hundreds of minke whales. He tells us how he does it, why he does it, and what he thinks would happen if whale-hunting ever stopped. (This bonus episode is a follow-up to our series “Everything You Never Knew About Whaling.”)

 

SOURCES: • Bjørn Andersen, Norwegian whaler.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Digestive physiology of minke whales • ," by S.D. Mathiesen, T.H. Aagnes, W. Sørmo, E.S. Nordøy, A.S. Blix, M.A. Olsen 
(Developments in Marine Biology, • 1995).
 • "
Norway Is Planning to Resume Whaling Despite World Ban • ," by Craig Whitney 
(New York Times, • 1992).
 • "
Commission Votes to Ban Hunting of Whales • ," by Philip Shabecoff 
(New York Times, • 1982).

 

EXTRAS: • "
Everything You Never Knew About Whaling • ," series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2023).

Extra: A Modern Whaler Speaks Up (Update)

In the final episode of our whale series, we learn about fecal plumes, shipping noise, and why Moby-Dick is still worth reading. (Part 3 of "Everything You Never Knew About Whaling.")

 

SOURCES:Michele Baggio • , professor of economics at the University of Connecticut.
Mary K. Bercaw-Edwards • , professor of maritime English at the University of Connecticut and lead foreman at the Mystic Seaport Museum.
Hester Blum • , professor of English at Washington University in St. Louis.
Eric Hilt • , professor of economics at Wellesley College.
Kate O’Connell • , senior policy consultant for the marine life program at the Animal Welfare Institute.
Maria Petrillo • , director of interpretation at the Mystic Seaport Museum.
Joe Roman • , fellow and writer-in-residence at the Gund Institute for Environment, University of Vermont.

 

RESOURCES:Eat, Poop, Die: How Animals Make Our World, • by Joe Roman (2023).
 • “
Racial Diversity and Team Performance: Evidence from the American Offshore Whaling Industry • ,” by Michele Baggio and Metin M. Cosgel (
S.S.R.N., • 2023).
 • “
Why 23 Dead Whales Have Washed Up on the East Coast Since December • ,” by Tracey Tully and Winston Choi-Schagrin (
The New York Times, • 2023).
 • “
Suspected Russia-Trained Spy Whale Reappears Off Sweden’s Coast • ,” by A.F.P. in Stockholm (
The Guardian, • 2023).
 • “
International Trade, Noise Pollution, and Killer Whales • ,” by M. Scott Taylor and Fruzsina Mayer (
N.B.E.R. Working Paper, • 2023).
 • “
World-First Map Exposes Growing Dangers Along Whale Superhighways • ,” by the World Wildlife Fund (2022).
 • “
Lifting Baselines to Address the Consequences of Conservation Success • ,” by Joe Roman, Meagan M. Dunphy-Daly, David W. Johnston, and Andrew J. Read (
Trends in Ecology & Evolution, • 2015).
 • “
Wages, Risk, and Profits in the Whaling Industry • ,” by Elmo P. Hohman (
The Quarterly Journal of Economics, • 1926).
Moby-Dick, • by Herman Melville (1851).

 

EXTRAS: • “
Why Do People Still Hunt Whales? (Update) • ” by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2025).
 • “
How Much Does Discrimination Hurt the Economy? • ” by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2021).

What Can Whales Teach Us About Clean Energy, Workplace Harmony, and Living the Good Life? (Update)

For years, whale oil was used as lighting fuel, industrial lubricant, and the main ingredient in (yum!) margarine. Whale meat was also on a few menus. But today, demand for whale products is at a historic low. And yet some countries still have a whaling industry. We find out why. (Part 2 of “Everything You Never Knew About Whaling.”)

 

SOURCES:Jay Alabaster • , doctoral student at Arizona State University’s Walter Cronkite School of Journalism.
Bjorn Basberg • , professor emeritus of economic history at the Norwegian School of Economics.
Eric Hilt • , professor of economics at Wellesley College.
Kate O’Connell • , senior policy consultant for the marine life program at the Animal Welfare Institute.
Paul Watson • , environmental activist and founder of the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society.

 

RESOURCES: • “
The Soviet Union Killed an Appalling Number of Whales. I Wanted to Know Why • ,” by Ryan Tucker Jones (
Slate, • 2022).
 • “
Behind the Smile: The Multi-Billion Dollar Dolphin Entertainment Industry • ,” by World Animal Protection (2019).
 • “
Japan to Resume Commercial Whaling, Defying International Ban • ,” by Daniel Victor (
The New York Times, • 2018).
 • “
Why Is There Not More Outrage About Japan’s Barbaric Practice of Whaling? • ” by Boris Johnson (
The Telegraph, • 2018).
 • “
Margarine Once Contained a Whole Lot More Whale • ,” by Sarah Laskow (
Gastro Obscura, • 2017).
 • “
3 Million Whales Were Killed in the 20th Century: Report • ,” (
N.B.C. News, • 2015).
 • “
The Spectacular Rise and Fall of U.S. Whaling: An Innovation Story • ,” by Derek Thompson (
The Atlantic, • 2012).
In Pursuit of Leviathan: Technology, Institutions, Productivity, and Profits in American Whaling, 1816-1906 • , by Lance E. Davis, Robert E. Gallman, and Karin Gleiter (1997).
 • “
Norway Is Planning to Resume Whaling Despite World Ban • ,” by Craig R. Whitney (
The New York Times, • 1992).

 

EXTRAS: • “
The First Great American Industry • ,” by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2023).

Why Do People Still Hunt Whales? (Update)

Whaling was, in the words of one scholar, “early capitalism unleashed on the high seas.” How did the U.S. come to dominate the whale market? Why did whale hunting die out here — and continue to grow elsewhere? And is that whale vomit in your perfume? (Part 1 of “Everything You Never Knew About Whaling.”)

 

SOURCES:Eric Hilt • , professor of economics at Wellesley College.
Nathaniel Philbrick • , writer and historian.
Paul Watson • , environmental activist and founder of the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society.

 

RESOURCES: • “
Calls From the Deep: Do We Need to Save the Whales All Over Again? • ” by Sophy Grimshaw (
The Guardian, • 2020).
 • “
The Very Small World of V.C. • ,” by Avi Asher-Schapiro (
The New Republic, • 2019).
 • “
How Nantucket Came to Be the Whaling Capital of the World • ,” by Nathaniel Philbrick (
Smithsonian Magazine, • 2015).
 • “
Fin-tech • ,” (
The Economist, • 2015).
 • “
The Spectacular Rise and Fall of U.S. Whaling: An Innovation Story • ,” by Derek Thompson (
The Atlantic, • 2012).
Leviathan: The History of Whaling in America, • by Eric Jay Dolin (2007).
 • “
Incentives in Corporations: Evidence from the American Whaling Industry • ,” by Eric Hilt (
NBER Working Papers, • 2004).
In the Heart of the Sea: The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex, • by Nathaniel Philbrick (2000).
 • “
Productivity in American Whaling: The new Bedford Fleet in the Nineteenth Century • ,” by Lance Davis, Robert Galiman, and Teresa Hutchins (
NBER Working Paper, • 1987).

 

EXTRAS: • “
Is Venture Capital the Secret Sauce of the American Economy? • ” by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2021).
 • “
Is the Future of Farming in the Ocean? • ” by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2021).

The First Great American Industry (Update)

It’s a haphazard way of paying workers, and yet it keeps expanding. With federal tax policy shifting in a pro-tip direction, we revisit an episode from 2019 to find out why.

 

SOURCES:John List • , economist at the University of Chicago.
Michael Lynn • , professor of consumer behavior and marketing at Cornell University’s School of Hotel Administration.
Uri Gneezy • , economist at the University of California, San Diego’s Rady School of Management.
Danny Meyer • , founder of Union Square Hospitality Group, and founder and chairman of the board of Shake Shack.

 

RESOURCES: • "
How ‘No Tax on Tips’ Will Affect Waiters, Drivers and Diners • ," by Julia Moskin 
(New York Times, • 2025).
 • “
The Drivers of Social Preferences: Evidence from a Nationwide Tipping Field Experiment • ,” by Bharat Chandar, Uri Gneezy, John List, and Ian Muir (
The • 
National Bureau of Economic Research • , 2019).
 • “
Design and Analysis of Cluster-Randomized Field Experiments in Panel Data Settings • ,” by Bharat Chandar, Ali Hortacsu, John List, Ian Muir, and Jeffrey Wooldridge (
The National Bureau of Economic Research, • 2019)
. • “
The Effects of Tipping on Consumers’ Satisfaction with Restaurants • ,” by Michael Lynn (
The Journal of Consumer Affairs • , 2018).
 • “
The Importance of Being Marginal: Gender Differences in Generosity • ,” Stefano DellaVigna, John List, Ulrike Malmendier, and Gautam Rao (
The • 
American Economic Review • , 2013).
 • “
Restaurant Tipping and Service Quality: A Tenuous Relationship • ,” by Michael Lynn (
The Cornell Hotel and Restaurant Administration Quarterly • , 2001).

 

EXTRAS: • “
The No-Tipping Point • ,” by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2016).
 • “
Should Tipping Be Banned? • ” by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2013).

Why Does Tipping Still Exist? (Update)

They should have died out when the lightbulb was invented. Instead they’re a $10 billion industry. What does it mean that we still want tiny fires inside our homes?

 

SOURCES:Tim Cooper • , professor emeritus of sustainable design and consumption at Nottingham Trent University.
Gökçe Günel • , professor of anthropology at Rice University.
Steve Horenziak • , president of the National Candle Association.
Meik Wiking • , Danish happiness researcher, C.E.O. of the Happiness Research Institute.

 

RESOURCES: • "
The Great Lightbulb Conspiracy • ," by Markus Krajewski 
(IEEE Spectrum, • 2024).
 • "
The Obsolescence Issue • ," edited by Townsend Middleton, Gökçe Günel, and Ashley Carse 
(Limn, • 2024).
More and More and More, • by Jean-Baptiste Fressoz (2024).
 • "
What Yankee Candle reviews can tell us about COVID • ," by Manuela López Restrepo, Christopher Intagliata, Ailsa Chang, and Sacha Pfeiffer 
(NPR, • 2022).
Spaceship in the Desert, • by Gökçe Günel (2019).
 • "
The Birth of Planned Obsolescence • ," by Livia Gershon 
(JSTOR Daily, • 2017).
 • "
Beeswax for the Ages • ," by G. Jeffrey MacDonald 
(The Living Church, • 2016).
The Waste Makers, • by Vance Packard (2011).

 

EXTRAS: • "
Why Do People Still Hunt Whales? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2023).
 • "
How to Be Happy • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2018).

643. Why Do Candles Still Exist?

The former secretary of state isn’t a flamethrower, but he certainly has strong opinions. In this wide-ranging conversation with Stephen Dubner, he gives them all: on Israel, Gaza, China, Iran, Russia, Biden, Trump — and the rest of the world.

 

SOURCES:Antony Blinken • , former Secretary of State.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Evaluating the impact of two decades of USAID interventions and projecting the effects of defunding on mortality up to 2030: a retrospective impact evaluation and forecasting analysis • ," by Daniella Cavalcanti, Lucas de Oliveira Ferreira de Sales, Andrea Ferreira da Silva, Elisa Basterra, Daiana Pena, Caterina Monti, Gonzalo Barreix, Natanael Silva, Paula Vaz, Francisco Saute, Gonzalo Fanjul, Quique Bassat, Denise Naniche, James Macinko, and Davide Rasella 
(The Lancet, • 2025).
 • "
What Bombs Can’t Do in Iran • ," by Karim Sadjadpour 
(New York Times, • 2025).
 • "
A New Palestinian Offer for Peace With Israel • ," by Elliot Kaufman 
(Wall Street Journal, • 2025).
 • "
America’s Strategy of Renewal • ," by Antony Blinken 
(Foreign Affairs, • 2024).

642. How to Wage Peace, According to Tony Blinken

Until recently, Delaware was almost universally agreed to be the best place for companies to incorporate. Now, with Elon Musk leading a corporate stampede out of the First State, we revisit an episode from 2023 that asked if Delaware’s “franchise” is wildly corrupt, wildly efficient … or both?

 

SOURCES:John Cassara • , retired Special Agent detailee to the U.S. Department of Treasury’s Office of Terrorism Finance and Financial Intelligence.
Doneene Damon • , director with Richards, Layton, and Finger.
Travis Laster • , Vice Chancellor of the Delaware Court of Chancery.
Dan Nielson • , professor of government at the University of Texas.
Hal Weitzman • , professor of behavioral science, editor-in-chief of 
Chicago Booth Review, • and executive director for intellectual capital at the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business.

 

RESOURCES: • “
A Silicon Valley Giant Calls for a Delaware Exodus • ,” by Andrew Ross Sorkin, Bernhard Warner, Sarah Kessler, Michael J. de la Merced, and Danielle Kaye (
New York Times, • 2025).
 • "
Financial Secrecy Index • ," by Tax Justice Network (2025).
 • "
Annual Report Statistics • ," by Delaware Division of Corporations (2023).
What’s the Matter with Delaware? How the First State Has Favored the Rich, Powerful, and Criminal — and How It Costs Us All, • by Hal Weitzman (2022).
Global Shell Games: Experiments in Transnational Relations, Crime, and Terrorism, • by Michael G. Findley, Daniel L. Nielson, and J. C. Sharman (2014).
 • "
The FATF Recommendations • ," by the Financial Action Task Force (2012).

 

EXTRAS: • "
Will the Democrats 'Make America Great Again'? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2023).

Why Does One Tiny State Set the Rules for Everyone? (Update)

Delaware is beloved by corporations, bankruptcy lawyers, tax avoiders, and money launderers. Critics say the Delaware “franchise” is undemocratic and corrupt. Insiders say it’s wildly efficient. We say: they’re both right.

539. Why Does One Tiny State Set the Rules for Everyone?

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