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Freakonomics Radio + Stitcher

Freakonomics co-author Stephen J. Dubner uncovers the hidden side of everything. Why is it safer to fly in an airplane than drive a car? How do we decide whom to marry? Why is the media so full of bad news? Also: things you never knew you wanted to know about wolves, bananas, pollution, search engines, and the quirks of human behavior.

To get every show in the Freakonomics Radio Network without ads and a monthly bonus episode of Freakonomics Radio, start a free trial for SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus.

Freakonomics Radio

Epic Systems manages the electronic health records for hundreds of millions of people. This makes Faulkner a healthcare heavyweight and one of the most successful female entrepreneurs in history. So why haven’t we ever heard much from her? Stephen Dubner travels to Verona, Wisc., to explore the Faulknerverse.

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Judy Faulkner • , C.E.O. and founder of Epic Systems.

 Seth Howard • , executive vice president of research and development at Epic Systems.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
Epic Systems (MyChart) • ," by 
Acquired • (2025).

 • "
Federal antitrust lawsuit against Wisconsin-based Epic Systems will move forward • ," by Joe Schulz 
(Wisconsin Public Radio, • 2025).

 • "
Bill Gates meets Willy Wonka: How Epic’s 82-year-old billionaire CEO, Judy Faulkner, built her software factory • ," by Ashley Capoot 
(CNBC, • 2025).

 • "
Epic: The Future of Health Information Technology • ," by Regina Herzlinger and Brian Walker 
(Harvard Business School, • 2024).

 

 

 EXTRAS: • 

 • "
Can A.I. Save Your Life? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2026).

 • "
How to Fix the Hot Mess of U.S. Healthcare • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2021).

 

 
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672. What Makes Judy Faulkner Run?

New York City’s mayor called them “public enemy number one.” History books say they caused the Black Death — although recent scientific evidence disputes that claim. In an updated episode from 2025, we ask: Is the rat a scapegoat? And what does our rat hatred say about us?

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Bethany Brookshire • , author of 
Pests: How Humans Create Animal Villains.
 Kathy Corradi • , senior vice president of resident services, partnerships, and initiatives at the New York City Housing Authority.

 Ed Glaeser • , professor of economics at Harvard University.

 Nils Stenseth • , professor of ecology and evolution at the University of Oslo.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
On Patrol With the Rat Czar, • " by Mark Chiusano 
(Intelligencer, • 2024).

 • "
How Rats Took Over North America, • " by Allison Parshall 
(Scientific American, • 2024).

 • "
Where Are the Rats in New York City, • " by Matt Yan 
(New York Times, • 2024).

 Pests: How Humans Create Animal Villains • by Bethany Brookshire (2022).

 • "
Human ectoparasites and the spread of plague in Europe during the Second Pandemic, • " by Nils Stenseth, Katharine Dean, Fabienne Krauer, Lars Walløe, Ole Christian Lingjærde, Barbara Bramanti, and Boris Schmid 
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, • 2018).

 

 

 EXTRAS: • 

 • "
Freakonomics Radio Live: 'Jesus Could Have Been a Pigeon.' • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2018).

 

 
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Why Does Everyone Hate Rats? (Update)

One possibility: a leading hypothesis pursued by researchers (and funders) was built on science that now appears to be fraudulent. Stephen Dubner speaks with the scientist and the journalist who blew the whistle.

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Charles Piller • , investigative journalist for 
Science, • author of 
Doctored • .

 Matthew Schrag • , associate professor of neurology at Vanderbilt University Medical Center.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 Doctored: Fraud, Arrogance, and Tragedy in the Quest to Cure Alzheimer's, • by Charles Piller (2025).

 • "
The brain makes a lot of waste. Now scientists think they know where it goes • ," by Jon Hamilton 
(NPR, • 2024).

 • "
The history of Alzheimer’s disease • ," by Lisa Kiani and Richard Hodson 
(Nature, • 2024).

 

 

 EXTRAS: • 

 • "
Can Marty Makary Fix the F.D.A.? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2026).

 • "
Are You Ready for the Elder Swell? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2025).

 

 
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671. Why Has There Been So Little Progress on Alzheimer’s Disease?

How do beekeepers make a living? Why is there so much honey fraud? And why did billions of bees suddenly disappear? To find out, guest host Steve Levitt activates his hive mind.

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Alex Sapoznik • , historian, reader in late medieval history at King’s College London.

 Chris Hiatt • , past president of the American Honey Producers Association, owner of Hiatt Honey Company.

 Michael Roberts • , founding executive director of the Resnick Center for Food Law and Policy at U.C.L.A. Law School.

 Walter "Wally" Thurman • , professor emeritus of agricultural economics at North Carolina State University.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
U.S. honey is increasingly supplied through imports • ," by David Olsen 
(USDA Economic Research Service, • 2018).

 • "
Economic Effects and Responses to Changes in Honey Bee Health • ," by Peyton Ferrier, Randal Rucker, Walter Thurman, and Michael Burgett 
(USDA Economic Research Service, • 2018).

 • "
The Fable of the Bees: An Economic Investigation • ," by Steven Cheung 
(The Journal of Law and Economics, • 1973).

 • "
Sugar and Sweeteners Yearbook Tables - Visualization: Meeting honey demand in the United States • ," 
(USDA Economic Research Service) • .

 

 
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670. Beeconomics 101

Nearly everything that politicians say about taxes is at least half a lie. They are also dishonest when it comes to the national debt. In this update of an episode from 2025, Stephen Dubner finds one of the few people in Washington who is willing to tell the truth — and it’s even worse than you think.

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Jessica Riedl • , budget and tax fellow at the Brookings Institution.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
How Did DOGE Disrupt So Much While Saving So Little? • " by Emily Badger, David Fahrenthold, Alicia Parlapiano, and Margot Sanger-Katz 
(New York Times, • 2025).

 • "
Correcting the Top 10 Tax Myths, • " by Jessica Riedl 
(Manhattan Institute, • 2024).

 • "
Spending, Taxes, and Deficits: A Book of Charts, • " by Jessica Riedl 
(Manhattan Institute, • 2024).

 • "
Why Did Americans Stop Caring About the National Debt? • " by Jessica Riedl 
(Reason, • 2024).

 • "
A Comprehensive Federal Budget Plan to Avert a Debt Crisis, • " by Jessica Riedl 
(Manhattan Institute, • 2024).

 • "
When Does Federal Debt Reach Unsustainable Levels? • " by Jagadeesh Gokhale, Kent Smetters, and Mariko Paulson 
(The Wharton School of Business, • 2023).

 • "
The Limits of Taxing the Rich, • " by Jessica Riedl 
(Manhattan Institute, • 2023).

 

 

 EXTRAS: • 

 • "
Farewell to a Generational Talent, • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2024).

 

 

 
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Ten Myths About the U.S. Tax System (Update)

Is it tradition … or protectionism? And what happens when the bourbon boom turns into a glut?

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Andrew Muhammad • , agricultural economist at the University of Tennessee.

 Brad Patrick • , executive in residence and lecturer at the University of Kentucky Gatton College of Business and Economics, bourbon fellow at the James B. Beam Institute for Kentucky Spirits.

 Danny Kahn • , master distiller and distillation and aging operations director at Sazerac.

 Ken Troske • , labor economist and chair of the economics department at the University of Kentucky.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
America's Bourbon Boom Is Over. Now the Hangover Is Here • ," by Aaron Tilley and Sadie Gurman (
The Wall Street Journal • , 2024).

 Bourbon Empire: The Past and Future of America's Whiskey • , by Reid Mitenbuler (2015).

 • "
Code of Federal Regulations: Standards of Identity for Distilled Spirits • ," (
Electronic Code of Federal Regulations) • .

 

 
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669. Why Is 95 Percent of the World’s Bourbon Made in Kentucky?

As one researcher told us: “We’ve engineered a world where the most distracting device ever made is also the one we use to listen to music in the car." A new study tries to measure the cost.

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Bapu Jena • , economist, physician, and professor at Harvard Medical School.

 Chris Worsham • , pulmonary and critical-care physician at Mass General Hospital, health-policy and public-health researcher at Harvard Medical School.

 Vishal Patel • , surgery resident at Brigham and Women's Hospital, researcher at Harvard Medical School.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
Smartphones, Online Music Streaming, and Traffic Fatalities • ," by Vishal Patel, Christopher Worsham, Michael Liu, and Bapu Jena 
(NBER, • 2026).

 Random Acts of Medicine: The Hidden Forces That Sway Doctors, Impact Patients, and Shape Our Health • , by Anupam Jena and Christopher Worsham (2023).

 • "
Mortality and treatment patterns among patients hospitalized with acute cardiovascular conditions during dates of national cardiology meetings • ," by Bapu Jena, Vinay Prasad, Dana Goldman, and John Romley 
(JAMA Internal Medicine, • 2015).

 • "
Road Crash Fatalities on US Income Tax Days • ," by Donald Redelmeier and Christopher Yarnell 
(JAMA, • 2012).

 • "
Memories of colonoscopy: a randomized trial • ," by Donald Redelmeier, Joel Katz, and Daniel Kahneman 
(PAIN, • 2003).

 

 

 EXTRAS: • 

 • "
Why Is There So Much Fraud in Academia? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2024).

 • "
Why Is Flying Safer Than Driving? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2023).

 • "
Why Is the U.S. So Good at Killing Pedestrians? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2023).

 

 
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668. Do Taylor Swift and Bad Bunny Have Blood on Their Hands?

In blue cities across the country, unions and politicians want to ban self-driving cars. In this episode from the Search Engine podcast, PJ Vogt visits Boston to sort the facts from the propaganda. (Part two of a two-part series.)

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Carl Richardson • , ADA coordinator for the Massachusetts State House, president of the Guide Dog Users of Massachusetts.

 Gabriela Coletta Zapata • , Boston City councilor from District 1.

 Julia Mejia • , Boston City councilor at-large.

 Timothy B. Lee • , author of 
Understanding AI • newsletter.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
Waymo Hits a Rough Patch in Washington, DC • ," by Aarian Marshall 
(WIRED, • 2026).

 • "
New York drops plan to legalize robotaxis in setback for Waymo • ," by Andrew J. Hawkins 
(The Verge, • 2026).

 • "
Waymo’s next five cities are all in red states • ," by Timothy B. Lee and Kai Williams 
(Understanding AI, • 2025).

 • "
What Waymo could mean for Bostonians with disabilities: independence at their fingertips • ," by Carl Richardson 
(Boston Globe, • 2025).

 • "
Planning, Development and Transportation on July 24, 2025 • ," 
(Boston City Council, • 2025).

 • "
Ride-Hailing Drivers in Massachusetts Win Right to Unionize • ," by Eli Tan 
(The New York Times, • 2024).

 • "
East Coast Longshore Workers May Soon Strike • ," by Joe Demanuelle-Hall 
(Jacobin, • 2024).

 

 

 EXTRAS: • 

 • "
The Fascinatingly Mundane Secrets of the World’s Most Exclusive Nightclub • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2024).

 Search Engine • , podcast by PJ Vogt.

 

 
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In a Driverless World, Who Loses and Who Wins?

How a secret project at Google led to driverless cars on American roads. 

Freakonomics Radio shares a story from our friends at Search Engine. (Part one of a two-part series.)

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Alex Davies • , author of 
Driven: The Race To Create the Autonomous Car • .

 Chris Urmson • , co-founder and C.E.O. of Aurora.

 Don Burnette • , founder and C.E.O. of Kodiak AI.

 PJ Vogt • , reporter, writer, and host of the 
Search Engine • podcast.

 Sebastian Thrun • , roboticist, C.E.O. of Sage AI Labs, adjunct faculty at Stanford University.

 Timothy B. Lee • , author of 
Understanding AI • newsletter.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
Very few of Waymo’s most serious crashes were Waymo’s fault • ," by Kai Williams 
(Understand • 
AI, • 2025).

 Driven: The Race to Create the Autonomous Car, • by Alex Davies (2021).

 • "
An Oral History of the Darpa Grand Challenge, the Grueling Robot Race That Launched the Self-Driving Car • ," by Alex Davies 
(WIRED, • 2017).

 Understanding AI, • newsletter on Substack.

 Waymo Safety Dashboard • .

 

 

 EXTRAS: • 

 • "
The Fascinatingly Mundane Secrets of the World’s Most Exclusive Nightclub • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2024).

 Search Engine, • podcast by PJ Vogt.

 

 
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Are Human Drivers Finally Obsolete?

A ruthless (and ruthlessly efficient) industry is using digital tools to supercharge one of the world’s oldest behaviors. We look at how the industry works, and ask the scam-fighters what they’re doing about it.

 

 SOURCES: • 

 Kati Daffan • , former assistant director at the Federal Trade Commission's Division of Marketing Practices.

 Marti DeLiema • , assistant professor of social work at the University of Minnesota.

 Mark Frank • , professor of communications at the University at Buffalo.

 

 

 RESOURCES: • 

 • "
Cambodian Scam Tycoon Wanted by U.S. Extradited to China • ," by Gabriele Steinhauser 
(Wall Street Journal, • 2026).

 • "
The Rise and Fall Of Accused Cambodian Scam Kingpin Chen Zhi • ," by Low De Wei 
(Bloomberg, • 2026).

 • "
Protecting Older Consumers 2024-2025 • ," by the Federal Trade Commission (2025).

 • "
Meta is earning a fortune on a deluge of fraudulent ads, documents show • ," by Jeff Horwitz 
(Reuters, • 2025).

 • "
Exposed to Scams: What Separates Victims from Non-victims? • ," by Marti DeLiema, Emma Fletcher, Christine Kieffer, Gary Mottola, Rubens Pessanha, and Melissa Trumpower 
(Stanford Center on Longevity, • 2019).

 • "
Why do Nigerian Scammers Say They are from Nigeria? • ," by Cormac Herley 
(Microsoft Research, • 2016).

 Thinking, Fast and Slow, • by Daniel Kahneman (2013).

 FTC Fraud Reporting Portal • .

 

 
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667. Here’s Why You Are Constantly Fighting Off Scammers

Evidence from Nazi Germany and 1940’s America (and pretty much everywhere else) shows that discrimination is incredibly costly — to the victims, of course, but also the perpetrators. One modern solution is to invoke a diversity mandate. But new research shows that’s not necessarily the answer.

 
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480. How Much Does Discrimination Hurt the Economy?

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