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The Verge

Decoder is a show from The Verge about big ideas — and other problems. Verge editor-in-chief Nilay Patel talks to a diverse cast of innovators and policymakers at the frontiers of business and technology to reveal how they’re navigating an ever-changing landscape, what keeps them up at night, and what it all means for our shared future.

Decoder with Nilay Patel

Today, I’m talking with Zillow CEO Jeremy Wacksman. Zillow is one of those apps that really exemplifies what you might call the smartphone era of software: the company built a great mobile app for looking at real estate listings, and it turned into not just entertainment for so many of us, but what has become a vertically-integrated platform for buying, selling, and renting real estate.

Jeremy’s argument is that the future of Zillow looks a lot like an end-to-end business platform for real estate agents, and we spent a lot of time talking about whether a business as local and as relationship driven as real estate can benefit from platform-level scale in the way he’s proposing.

Links: 

 Zillow’s new AI staging feature is impressively unimpressive | The Verge

 Zillow’s upgraded AI search will show you more homes you can’t afford | The Verge

 Zillow adds DMs so you can chat about homes you’ll never buy | The Verge

 FTC accuses Zillow of paying $100 million to ‘dismantle’ Redfin | The Verge

 Housing is frozen. Wacksman knows you’re still scrolling | NYT

 Wacksman on the US housing market | Bloomberg Talks

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Zillow's CEO on growth during a housing crisis

Today, we’re talking about the future of Xbox. Phil Spencer, a two-time Decoder guest who’s led Xbox for more than a decade, is stepping down. But in a shocking twist, his deputy long-assumed successor Sarah Bond is also out too, and the Xbox division is now in the hands of an Asha Sharma, one of Microsoft’s AI executives with no prior game industry experience.

There is no better person to talk to about all of this than Tom Warren, senior editor here at The Verge and author of the excellent Notepad newsletter. Tom is actually on parental leave right now, but Microsoft has a longstanding habit of disrupting his well-earned time off. So, Tom was gracious enough to come on the show after publishing a major scoop about what went down at Xbox this past week.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge.

Links: 

 Inside Microsoft’s big Xbox leadership shake-up | The Verge

 Billions of dollars later and still nobody knows what an Xbox is | The Verge

 Xbox chief Phil Spencer is leaving Microsoft | The Verge

 Read Xbox chief Phil Spencer’s memo about leaving Microsoft | The Verge

 Here’s what Xbox is working on for 2026 | The Verge

 AMD hints Microsoft could launch its next-gen Xbox in 2027 | The Verge

 The next Xbox is going to be very different | The Verge

 Xbox co-founder believes it’s being ‘sunsetted’ in favor of AI | VGC

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Inside Xbox's executive shakeup

Today, I’m talking with Hank Green, a longtime friend of Decoder and the co-founder and now former owner of Complexly, an online education company he started with his brother John in 2012. I say former owner because Hank and John have just converted Complexly into a nonprofit and given up their ownership of the company in the process.

That’s some of the purest Decoder bait that ever was, because it’s all about how you structure a company and how you make decisions about changing that structure. So of course I had to bring Hank back on to talk all about it.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge.

Links: 

 Greens’ studio becomes nonprofit as they aim to make ‘trustworthy content’ | AP

 Hank Green makes Nilay Patel explain why websites have a future | Decoder (2024)

 Why Hank Green can’t quit YouTube for TikTok | Decoder (2022)

 Hank Green and Sam Reich on running content companies | Decoder

 Hank Green and Sal Khan on AI in educational video | Decoder

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hank Green lets loose on YouTube, billionaires, and algorithms

Today we're talking about the war for AI talent. Right now, the hottest job market on the planet is for AI researchers. And the vast majority of these people are concentrated into a small number of hugely valuable, extremely fast-growing companies in the San Francisco Bay Area, most of which are now paying some of the highest salaries in the history of tech to poach from one another.

We’ve been dying to really dig in and try to unpack what's going on with all these talent moves in AI. So we brought on Verge senior AI reporter Hayden Field, who's been covering the revolving door of the AI industry really closely and also the broader culture that's motivating workers to jump ship. 

Links: 

 What’s behind the mass exodus at xAI? | The Verge

 OpenClaw founder Peter Steinberger is joining OpenAI | The Verge

 Two more xAI co-founders leave after the SpaceX merger | The Verge

 AI safety leader says 'world is in peril' and quits to study poetry | BBC

 OpenAI is making the mistakes Facebook made. I quit. | NYT

 Anthropic’s chief on AI: ‘We don’t know if the models are conscious’ | NYT

 Meet the one woman Anthropic trusts to teach AI morals | WSJ

 OpenAI plans fourth-quarter IPO in race to beat Anthropic to market | WSJ

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Money no longer matters to AI's top talent

Today, we're talking about the camera company Ring, lost dogs, and the surveillance state. Since it aired for a massive audience at the Super Bowl, Ring’s Search Party commercial has become a lightning rod for controversy. It’s easy to see how the same technology that can find lost dogs can be used to find people, and then used to invade our privacy in all kinds of uncomfortable ways, by cops and regular people alike. 

Although Ring has since canceled its partnership with controversial surveillance company Flock, the company is now facing hard questions about its plans to use AI to promote safer neighborhoods, and how that intersects with its ongoing relationship with law enforcement. 

Links: 

 Ring cancels partnership with Flock after surveillance backlash | The Verge 

 Ring’s lost dog ad sparks backlash amid fears of surveillance | The Verge

 Ring says it’s not giving ICE access to its cameras | The Verge

 How police recovered Nancy Guthrie’s Nest Doorbell footage | The Verge

 Ring’s Jamie Siminoff thinks AI can reduce crime | Decoder

 Ring CEO says cameras can almost ‘zero out crime’ within 12 months | The Verge

 ICE taps into nationwide AI camera network, data shows | 404 Media

 ICE, Secret Service had access to Flock's camera network | 404 Media

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Let's talk about Ring, lost dogs, and the surveillance state

My guest today is Bridget McCormack, former chief justice for the Michigan Supreme Court and now president and CEO of the American Arbitration Association. For the past several years, Bridget and her team have been developing an AI-assisted arbitration platform called the AI Arbitrator. 

So I sat down with her to talk about how the tool works, the pros and cons of automating parts of the arbitration process, and the bigger picture questions around institutional trust, justice, and the future of law. 

Links: 

 All rise for JudgeGPT | The Verge

 Why do lawyers keep using ChatGPT? | The Verge

 Judge berates AI entrepreneur for using a generated ‘lawyer’ | The Verge

 Judge slams lawyers for ‘bogus AI-generated research’ | The Verge

 LexisNexis CEO says the AI law era is already here | Decoder

 ChatGPT can be a disaster for lawyers — Robin AI wants to fix that | Decoder

 Considerations In building guardrails for AI use In arbitration | Law360

 The AI Arbitrator: What it is, what it isn’t, and where it’s going | Law360

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Chris Jereza and Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The surprising case for AI judges

Siemens is one of those absolutely giant, extremely important, fairly opaque companies we love to dig into on Decoder. At a very basic, reductive level, Siemens makes the hardware and software that let other companies run and automate their stuff.

We spent a lot of time talking about what happens to jobs when Siemens automates everything — and what happens to a company like Siemens when the free trade era we’re used to gets turned on its head.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Siemens Energy CEO attends Trump meeting at Davos | Reuters

 PepsiCo, Siemens, Nvidia announce digital twin collaboration | PepsiCo

 Siemens spins off Healthineers majority stake | Reuters

 Siemens USA to train 200,000 electricians by 2030 | Siemens

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Siemens CEO's mission to automate everything

Today, we’re going to talk about reality, and whether we can label photos and videos to protect our shared understanding of the world around us. To do this, I sat down with Verge reporter Jess Weatherbed, who covers creative tools for us — a space that’s been totally upended by generative AI. 

We’ve been talking about how the photos and videos taken by our phones are getting more and more processed for years on The Verge. Here in 2026, we’re in the middle of a full-on reality crisis, as fake and manipulated ultra-believable images and videos flood onto social platforms at scale. So Jess and I discussed the limitations of AI labeling standards like C2PA, and why social media execs like Instagram boss Adam Mosseri are now sounding the alarm. 

Read the full transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 This system can sort real pictures from AI fakes — why aren’t we using it? | The Verge

 You can’t trust your eyes to tell you what’s real, says Instagram | The Verge

 Instagram’s boss is missing the point about AI on the platform | The Verge

 Sora is showing us how broken deepfake detection is | The Verge

 Reality still matters | The Verge

 No one’s ready for this | The Verge

 What is a photo, @WhiteHouse edition | The Verge

 Google Gemini is getting better at identifying AI fakes | The Verge

 Let’s compare Apple, Google & Samsung’s definitions of 'photo’ | The Verge

 The Pixel 8 and the what-is-a-photo apocalypse | The Verge

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Reality is losing the deepfake war

Today, I’m talking with Allan Thygesen, who is the CEO of Docusign. You know Docusign, it’s the platform that lets you sign stuff online. It turns out 7,000 people work there, which is one of those facts floating around that’s always felt like perfect Decoder bait. What are all those people doing? And what kind of product roadmap does a company like Docusign even need?

Alan has only been CEO of Docusign for three years, so he has some interesting perspective on where the company was, the changes he wanted to make, and where he thinks this is all going. Hint: it involves AI. 

Read the full transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Docusign's AI will help you understand what you're signing | Fast Company

 Docusign on ‘transformational journey,’ CEO Says | Bloomberg

 How Docusign Is modernizing the age-old business contract | Barron’s

 Docusign unveils next-gen eSignature with AI | Docusign

 Docusign brings its contract AI to ChatGPT | Docusign

 Interview with Docusign CEO Allan Thygesen | Motley Fool (Podcast)

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Docusign's CEO on the dangers of trusting AI to read, and write, your contracts

Today, we’re talking about the bidding war over Warner Bros. Discovery, which is the biggest story in the entertainment industry right now, and for good reason. It has pretty much everything you could want in a buzzy Hollywood saga — big names, big money, and big drama.

To help me make sense of it all, I wanted to talk with Julia Alexander, a Verge alum and now media correspondent at Puck News who’s one of the best in the business at analyzing corporate strategy, Hollywood, and what’s next in entertainment. Julia really helped me break down why Netflix is the clear front runner to acquire Warner Bros., why David Ellison of Paramount Skydance is so desperate to win, and, perhaps most importantly, how the tech industry fits into this puzzle.

Links: 

 Netflix is buying Warner Bros. for $83 billion | The Verge

 Paramount launches hostile $108 billion bid to snatch Warner | The Verge

 Netflix revises Warner Bros. bid to an all-cash offer | The Verge

 Why Netflix needs Warner Bros. | Puck News

 The Warner Bros. bidding war Is over | Bloomberg

 The Son King of Hollywood | Vulture

 FCC Chair: ‘Legitimate competition concerns’ with Netflix’s Warner deal | Variety

 Netflix's Ted Sarandos to testify at antitrust hearing over Warner deal | Variety

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. 
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The surprising case for AI judges

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