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The Verge

Decoder is a show from The Verge about big ideas — and other problems. Verge editor-in-chief Nilay Patel talks to a diverse cast of innovators and policymakers at the frontiers of business and technology to reveal how they’re navigating an ever-changing landscape, what keeps them up at night, and what it all means for our shared future.

Decoder with Nilay Patel

Today, I’m talking with Mustafa Suleyman, the CEO of Microsoft AI. As you’re no doubt aware, the biggest story in tech right now is the spiraling debate about AI safety and regulation. So I really wanted to talk to Mustafa about what he thinks is real and not in AI safety, whether the concept of alignment itself is up to the task, and whether this industry needs to slow down before it kills us all. 

Read the ⁠full interview transcript on The Verge⁠. 

Links: 

 A warning about ‘model welfare’ | Mustafa Suleyman

 Humanist AI Code of Conduct | Microsoft

 Is Big Tech’s AI slowdown a safety pact or a cartel? | The Verge

 A brief history of AI executives calling for regulation | The Verge

 What execs and politicians are saying about slowing down AI development | The Verge

 Anthropic CEO says it’s time to pump the brakes on AI | The Verge

 Microsoft’s AI chief says superintelligence is near, but won’t take your job | Decoder (2026)

 Mustafa Suleyman says conversational AI is the next web browser | Decoder (2024)

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Microsoft AI CEO says AI threats are real, and Anthropic is making it worse

Adam Conover is a familiar face to anyone who’s spent time on the internet. He got his start at CollegeHumor back in the day, before transitioning into cable TV with Adam Ruins Everything, then onto Netflix, and all the way back to YouTube again, where he posts videos and hosts a podcast.

That is exactly the kind of career path that fascinates me, and it also happens to touch on basically every major Decoder theme there is. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 YouTube is making it harder to earn money on YouTube | The Verge

 Adam Conover regrets shilling Sam Altman’s World | The Verge

 Elon Musk is an idiot | Adam Conover

 How HBO’s creatives survived corporate chaos | Decoder

 YouTube’s Neal Mohan on the future for creators | Decoder (2021)

 Banning Trump was the right decision, says Instagram’s Mosseri | Decoder (2021)

 Ethics in journalism, with Ben Smith | Decoder

 Hank Green will gladly take billionaires’ money for education | Decoder

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Adam Conover explains how YouTube ruined everything

We’re back with another Decoder mailbag special. This time, we focused on feedback to Nilay’s “software brain” video essay, our ongoing coverage of AI and Big Tech backlash, surveillance, interviewing politicians ahead of the midterms, and more. 

Remember: we really do read every email, so please keep sending us your feedback, and letting us know what you think of our coverage and how we can improve. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 How to win — and lose — Decoder | Decoder Mailbag (2026)

 Nilay answers your burning Decoder questions | Decoder Mailbag (2025)

 Answering your biggest Decoder questions | Decoder Mailbag (2024)

 Sundar Pichai on AI, search, and the future of the web | Decoder (2026)

 The people do not yearn for automation | Decoder

 Bluesky’s new CEO wants a big tent, not a bubble | Decoder

 New York Governor Kathy Hochul thinks AI should be ‘less evil’ | Decoder

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Gregg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why the current tech backlash feels different

My guest today is Sonos CEO Tom Conrad. Tom was on the board at Sonos during the disastrous 2024 app redesign that threatened to crash the entire brand, and he took over as interim CEO to right the ship during that period. About a year ago, he took the permanent role. 

I have been dying to have Tom on the show to talk about how the board decided to move on from previous CEO Patrick Spence, how he diagnosed the issues inside the company, and what decisions he made to fix them. Plus. Tom was willing to get into the weeds and nerd out with me, and I think this one is pretty fun because of it.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge.

Links: 

 After two years of turmoil, Sonos attempts a triumphant return | The Verge

 How Sonos’ Tom Conrad Is reshaping the brand after app disaster | Bloomberg

 An in-depth interview with Sonos interim CEO Tom Conrad | The Verge (2025)

 Sonos’ smart assistant is expanding from music to home control | The Verge

 Inside Sonos’ decision to sue Google — and how it won | Decoder (2022)

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How Sonos rebooted itself

It’s an election year, with a shocking amount of tech policy at stake, and Gov.Hochul has taken strong positions on almost every major tech issue there is. You'll hear us talk about the settlement Meta reached with dozens of states, including New York, and about widespread age verification. 

We also discussed 3D printing ghost guns; surveillance and Flock cameras; the politics of building — or not building — AI data centers; and, of course, Mayor Zohran Mamdani.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 New Yorkers will need to verify their age for algorithmic feeds | The Verge

 The cat-and-mouse game over 3D-printed guns has begun | The Verge

 Hochul says she’s using AI to analyze ‘every single rule’ in New York | The Verge

 NY becomes the first state to enact a data center moratorium | The Verge

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

New York Governor Kathy Hochul thinks AI should be ‘less evil’

Today, I’m talking with Hayden Field, The Verge’s senior AI reporter, about some pure Decoder bait: the seemingly-endless org chart changes at OpenAI, and how all of them seem to consolidate power under cofounder Greg Brockman, the company’s president.

While Sam Altman is the CEO and still OpenAI’s most public face, Brockman has amassed enormous power and influence within the top ranks of the company as other senior leaders have left in rapid succession. So I wanted Hayden to break down for me what’s going on at OpenAI, and the increasingly important role Greg Brockman will play in its future.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 It’s Greg Brockman’s OpenAI now | The Verge

 OpenAI’s Brockman brushes off concerns about leadership changes | CNBC

 Sam Altman on building OpenAI & betting on the impossible | David Senra

 OpenAI’s Q2 sales show tepid growth compared to Anthropic | WSJ

 Anthropic's revenue run rate reportedly surpasses $65 billion pre-IPO | Axios

 OpenAI President On Reinventing Computers | Johanna Stern / YouTube

 Greg Brockman takes control of OpenAI’s products in latest shake-up | Wired

 OpenAI’s president is a Trump mega-donor | The Verge

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

OpenAI's executive exodus has one big winner

Tim Cadogan is CEO of GoFundMe, the for-profit platform where you can donate to help people with everything from medical expenses to little league uniforms to starting a new business.

Tim took over as CEO in March 2020 — a chaotic moment when GoFundMe became a load-bearing part of American culture. So you can imagine I had a lot of questions for Tim, how he thinks about all this, and how he makes some very tough decisions on what money to make and what money not to make. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 The GoFundMe CEO wants you to ask: ‘How can I help?’ | New York TImes

 GoFundMe CEO: We weren't meant to replace COVID relief | USA Today

 GoFundMe Is a healthcare utility now | The Atlantic

 As Gaza is bombarded, GoFundMe donations are stuck in limbo | The Verge

 For the uninsured, crowdfunding provides little help in paying for healthcare | University of Washington

 Oregon nonprofits claim GoFundMe impersonated them | Central Oregon Daily News

 The causes and consequences of medical crowdfunding | ScienceDirect

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Eileen Felix. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How GoFundMe became America's backup plan

My guest today is Robert Hart, The Verge’s London-based AI reporter. Robert recently wrote a fantastic story for us about the debate raging inside the world of mathematics — and the existential crisis over what it means that new frontier AI models have become very good at math in a shockingly short period of time. 

I wanted to dive into all of this with Robert, who actually spoke to some of the most accomplished mathematicians working today to figure out what’s hype and what’s real — and to get a sense of just how exciting, and how scary, all of this is. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 The AI takeover of mathematics has begun | The Verge

 Ten advances in mathematics and theoretical computer science | OpenAI

 An unreleased Anthropic model made progress on the Riemann hypothesis| TechCrunch

 OpenAI’s amazing — but vastly oversold — new model Astra | Gary Marcus

 OpenAI’s math breakthrough played to AI’s strengths | Understanding AI

 Why the legendary Erdős problems are falling to AI | Quanta

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our supervising producer is Greg Ott, and our editorial director is Kevin McShane.

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the AI crisis in math

Today I’m talking to Ben Smith, the editor-in-chief of Semafor. Ben ran BuzzFeed News at the height of the Facebook traffic boom, and even wrote a book about it, called Traffic, which he discussed with me on Decoder back in 2023. 

Semafor, which is only four years old, is now a fast-growing and profitable media company, which makes about half of its revenue from events. So I wanted to talk to Ben about how that all works, and what it feels like to navigate the ethical conflicts that seem to be everywhere in media right now. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Jonah Peretti explains why he sold BuzzFeed | Decoder

 What’s after the social media era in news? | Decoder (2023)

 Semafor raises $30 Million after first profitable year | The Wrap

 Semafor’s new AI tool helped boil down its flagship conference | Nieman Lab

 Semafor launches Silicon Valley & The World | Semafor

 Semafor takes aim at Davos as events surpass half Its revenue | Adweek

 Semafor Is Betting Big on 'Anti-Scale' Video | Adweek

 Semafor wants to be ‘business outlet of record in the Gulf” | Press Gazette

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our Supervising Producer is Greg Ott and our Editorial Director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. 
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's about ethics in journalism, with Ben Smith

My guest today is The Verge’s Hayden Field, and we’re discussing a question that’s been rocketing around the tech industry for the past week: Is Google losing the AI race?

That's because last week, the company announced a bombshell reorganization of its AI division. You can read these moves, and Google’s reaction, in a lot of different ways. So I really wanted to sit down with Hayden to dig into some of the smartest analysis we’ve seen this past week, and what we think is really going on here.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 The messy politics behind Google’s big AI shakeup | The Verge

 Gemini is cooked but GCP is cooking | SemiAnalysis

 Google announced a major shakeup of its top AI leadership | The Verge

 AI lab musical chairs hits Google the hardest | Axios

 Demis Hassabis said this might be the ‘foothills of the singularity.’ What? | The Verge

 Google’s AI architect lived rent-free in Elon Musk’s head | The Verge

 Sundar Pichai on AI, search, and the future of the web | The Verge

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our supervising producer is Greg Ott, and our editorial director is Kevin McShane.

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Does Google even want to win in AI?

Hello, Nilay here. We’re still on winter break; we’ll be back with brand-new Decoder interviews next week, and with our Thursday shows later this month. I’m excited for what we’ve got in the pipeline. I think you’re going to love it.

For today, though, we’re sharing an episode of Peter Kafka’s new show Channels – he’s talking to disinformation researcher Renee DiResta about what’s going on with speech online in an era where platforms seem less inclined to moderate than ever. Peter’s an old friend and Renee is an expert on all this — there’s a lot of core Decoder themes in this one. Enjoy, and we’ll be back in a bit.

Links: 

Channels with Peter Kafka | Apple Podcasts

The Stanford Internet Observatory is being dismantled | Platformer

A major disinformation research center’s future looks uncertain | The Verge

Supreme Court to hear case on how government talks to social platforms | The Verge

GOP targets researchers who study disinformation ahead of 2024 Election | NYT

She warned of ‘peer-to-peer misinformation.’ Congress listened | NYT

Disinformation watchdogs are under pressure. This group refuses to stop | NYT

Credits:
Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James.
The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Studying online bad behavior was hard. It's going to get harder in Trump 2.0

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