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The Verge

Decoder is a show from The Verge about big ideas — and other problems. Verge editor-in-chief Nilay Patel talks to a diverse cast of innovators and policymakers at the frontiers of business and technology to reveal how they’re navigating an ever-changing landscape, what keeps them up at night, and what it all means for our shared future.

Decoder with Nilay Patel

This is Alex Heath, your Thursday episode guest host and deputy editor at The Verge. Today, I’m talking to a very special guest: Nick Turley, OpenAI’s head of ChatGPT. 

While Sam Altman is definitely the public face of OpenAI, Nick has been leading ChatGPT’s development since the very beginning, and it’s now the fastest-growing software product of all time with more than 700 million weekly users. So, Nick and I talk about the backlash against OpenAI’s removal of its GPT-4o model, the future of ChatGPT itself, solving hallucinations, and why he thinks it eventually won’t look like a chatbot at all. 

Read the full transcript on The Verge.

Links: 

 ChatGPT won’t remove old models without warning after GPT-5 backlash | Verge

 ChatGPT is bringing back 4o as an option because people missed it | Verge

 GPT-5 is being released to all ChatGPT users | Verge

 The 6 biggest changes coming to ChatGPT | Verge

 ChatGPT has 20 million paying subscribers | Verge

 Elon Musk says he’s suing Apple for rigging App Store rankings | Verge

 OpenAI’s ChatGPT to hit 700 million weekly users | CNBC

 Chatbots can go into a delusional spiral. Here’s how it happens | NYT

 ChatGPT gave instructions for murder, self-mutilation, and devil worship | The Atlantic

 ‘I feel like I’m going crazy’: ChatGPT fuels delusional spirals | WSJ

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams.

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

ChatGPT chief Nick Turley doesn't want you too attached to AI

This is Casey Newton, founder and editor of Platformer and cohost of the Hard Fork podcast. This is the second episode of my productivity-focused Decoder series I’m doing while Nilay is out on parental leave. 

Today, I’m talking with Notion cofounder and CEO Ivan Zhao. I’ve followed Notion for quite some time now — I’m a big fan, and I use Notion as part of my workflow with Platformer. So I was very excited to get Ivan on the show to discuss his philosophy on productivity, how he’s grown his company over the last decade, and where he sees the space going in the future. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Introducing Notion AI for Work | Notion

 Notion Mail is a minimalist but powerful take on email | Verge

 Notion’s new Q&A feature lets you ask an AI about your notes | Verge

 Notion takes on AI notetakers with its own transcription feature | TechCrunch

 The impossible dream of good workplace software | Decoder

 When AI has better taste than you | Julie Zhuo / The Looking Glass

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was editor by Xander Adams. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Notion's CEO wants you to demand better from your tools

This is Alex Heath, deputy editor at The Verge. My guest today is GitHub CEO Thomas Dohmke. In many ways, GitHub Copilot set off the current AI coding boom. But since Thomas was on the show a year ago, the rise of vibe coding has shifted the buzz to newer platforms like Cursor and Windsurf. As you’ll hear in our conversation, Thomas is thinking a lot about the competition, and GitHub’s role in the future of software development. 

Links: 

 Developers, Reinvented | Thomas Dohmke / GitHub

 Developer Odyssey | Thomas Dohmke / GitHub

 Why tech is racing to adopt AI coding, with Cursor’s Michael Truell | Decoder

 GitHub CEO Thomas Dohmke says AI needs competition to thrive | ⁠⁠Decoder⁠⁠

 Up to 30 percent of some Microsoft code is now written by AI | Verge

 GitHub launches its AI app-making tool in preview | Verge

 Microsoft is getting ready for GPT-5 with a new Copilot smart mode | Verge

 Zuckerberg: AI will write most Meta code within 18 months | Engadget

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

GitHub's CEO says AI coding is ‘here to stay’

This is Casey Newton, founder and editor of the Platformer newsletter and cohost of the Hard Fork podcast. I’ll be guest hosting the next few episodes of Decoder while Nilay is out on parental leave. For the next three weeks, I’ll be talking to leaders in the productivity space about what they’re building, and how they can help us get things done. 

My guest today: Michael Truell, the CEO of Anysphere, the maker of automated programming platform Cursor AI. I sat down with Michael to talk about his product and how it works, why coding with AI has seen such incredible adoption, and what the future of automated programming really looks like. 

Read the full transcript on The Verge.

Links: 

 Anysphere, hailed as fastest growing startup ever, raises $900 Million | Bloomberg

 AI coding assistant Cursor draws a million users without even trying | Bloomberg

 Anthropic rehires AI leaders from Anysphere | The Information

 Cursor apologizes for unclear pricing changes that upset users | TechCrunch

 OpenAI looked at buying Cursor creator before turning to rival Windsurf | CNBC

 Interview with Anysphere CEO Michael Truell about coding with AI | Stratechery

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why tech is racing to adopt AI coding

This is Alex Heath, your Thursday episode guest host and deputy editor at The Verge. Today I'm joined by Hayden Field, The Verge’s new senior AI reporter to talk about the AI talent wars and why some researchers are suddenly getting traded like their NBA superstars.

Both Hayden and I have been reporting on this for the past several weeks to get a sense of much these companies are paying for top talent, why Big Tech firms like Google are opting to hire instead of acquire, and what it means that some of the most sought-after AI experts in the world are no longer motivated by money alone. 

Links: 

 OpenAI’s Windsurf deal is off — and Windsurf’s CEO is going to Google | Verge

 Mark Zuckerberg promises you can trust him with superintelligent AI | Verge

 Meta is trying to win the AI race with money — but not everyone can be bought | Verge

 Meta says it’s winning the talent war with OpenAI | Command Line

 Google gets its swag back | Command Line

 The AI talent wars are just getting started | Command Line

 Meta tried to buy Safe Superintelligence, hired its CEO instead | CNBC

 Apple loses top AI models executive to Meta’s hiring spree | Bloomberg

 Meta’s AI recruiting campaign finds a new target | Wired

 Anthropic hires back two AI leaders from Anysphere | The Information

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why AI researchers are getting paid like NBA All-Stars

This is CNBC journalist Jon Fortt. This is the last episode I’ll be guest-hosting for Nilay while he’s out on parental leave. My guest today is Richard Robinson, who is the cofounder and CEO of legal tech startup Robin AI. 

Richard is a corporate lawyer-turned-startup founder working on AI tools for the legal profession. But law and AI have not mixed well. So I wanted to ask Richard about hallucinations, how lawyers can use AI today, and what it will really take to place our trust in an AI lawyer. 

Read the full transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Legal tech startup Robin AI raises another $25 million | Fortune

 Why do lawyers keep using ChatGPT? | Verge

 Judge slams lawyers for ‘bogus AI-generated research’ | Verge

 Lawyers using AI must heed ethics rules, ABA says in first formal guidance | Reuters

 Lawyers fined for submitting bogus case law created by ChatGPT | AP

 The ChatGPT lawyer explains himself | NYT

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Can we ever trust an AI lawyer?

This is Alex Heath, your Thursday episode guest host. Today I'm talking with Gaurav Misra, the CEO of Captions. You may not have heard of Captions yet, but by now, you’ve probably seen a video that was generated using its AI models. The company’s Mirage Studio platform lets anyone generate AI versions of real people, and the results are alarmingly realistic. 

Captions just put out a blog post titled, “We Build Synthetic Humans. Here’s What’s Keeping Us Up at Night.” It’s a good overview of the state of deepfakes and where they’re headed. So Gauraav and I sat down to discuss the trajectory of deepfake technology and what might be done to prevent it from being misused. 

Links: 

 We build synthetic humans. Here’s what’s keeping us up at night | Captions

 Google’s Veo 3 AI video generator is a slop monger’s dream | Verge

 Gemini AI can now turn photos into videos | Verge 

 Trump just unveiled his plan to put AI in everything | Verge

 Racist videos made with AI are going viral on TikTok | Verge

 Microsoft wants Congress to outlaw AI-generated deepfake fraud | Verge

 YouTube is supporting the ‘No Fakes Act’ targeting unauthorized AI replicas | Verge

 This Tom Cruise impersonator is using deepfake tech to impressive ends | Verge

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We are not ready for better deepfakes

This is Jon Fortt, CNBC journalist. I’m guest-hosting for a couple more episodes of Decoder this summer while Nilay is out on parental leave. Today, I’m talking with a very special guest: Gil Duran, an old friend, journalist, and author of The Nerd Reich, a newsletter and forthcoming book about the shifting politics of Silicon Valley and the rise of tech authoritarianism. 

Links: 

 Is Peter Thiel the Antichrist? NYT didn’t think to ask | The Nerd Reich

 How tech authoritarianism becomes reality | The Nerd Reich

 Curtis Yarvin’s Plot Against America | The New Yorker

 The rise of techno-authoritarianism | The Atlantic

 JD Vance thinks monarchists have some good ideas | The Verge

 Startups meeting with Trump officials to push for deregulated ‘Freedom Cities’ | Wired

 Peter Thiel-linked startup wants to build the “next great city” in Greenland | Inside Hook

 Bitcoin could replace dollar If US debt grows says Coinbase CEO | CryptoSlate

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why tech billionaires want a ‘corporate dictatorship’

This is Alex Heath, deputy editor at The Verge. Nilay’s out on parental leave for the next few months, so I’ll be stepping in to host our Thursday episodes while he’s out. My guest today is Perplexity CEO Aravind Srinivas, who is betting that the browser is where more useful AI will get built. 

Perplexity just released Comet, an AI web browser for the Mac and Windows that’s still in an invite-only beta. I’ve been using it, and it’s very interesting. In this conversation, Aravind and I also discussed the future of Perplexity, the AI talent wars, and why he thinks people will eventually pay thousands of dollars for a single AI prompt. 

Read the full transcript here on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Perplexity just launched an AI web browser | Verge

 Perplexity wants to buy Chrome if Google has to sell it | Verge

 The Dia browser is a big bet on the. web and AI | Verge

 Perplexity’s CEO on fighting Google & the AI browser war | Command Line

 Perplexity launches a $200 monthly subscription plan | Verge

 Meta says it’s winning the talent war with OpenAI | Verge

 Meta is trying to win the AI race with money | Verge

 Meta held talks to buy Perplexity and others | Command Line

 Inside Mark Zuckerberg’s AI hiring spree | Command Line

 Perplexity is ready to take on Google | Command Line

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Perplexity CEO on why the browser is AI's killer app

This is Jon Fortt, CNBC journalist, co-host of Closing Bell Overtime, and creator and host of the Fortt Knox podcast. I’m stepping in to guest host a few episodes of Decoder this summer while he’s out on parental leave, and I’m very excited for what we’ve been working on. 

For my first episode of Decoder, a show about how people make decisions, I wanted to talk to an expert. So I sat down with Cassie Kozyrkov, the CEO and founder of AI consultancy Kozyr and the former chief decision scientist at Google. Read the full transcript over on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Google’s ‘chief decision scientist’ explains why she left the company | Fortune

 What is Decision Science? | DataCamp (YouTube)

 Is It All About the Data? | DLD24 (YouTube)

 Cassie Kozyrkov on how AI can be a leadership partner | WorkLab

 Decision Intelligence with Cassie Kozyrkov | Google Cloud Platform Podcast

 Why AI and decision-making are two sides of the same coin | Cassie Kozyrkov

 Google's got a chief decision scientist. Here's what she does | Wired

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How decision making will change when AI answers are cheap and (too) easy

Author Walter Isaacson talks with Recode's Kara Swisher about his new biography of Renaissance artist and inventor Leonardo da Vinci, which he describes has a "culmination" of themes he explored in past books about Ada Lovelace, Ben Franklin and Steve Jobs. Isaacson explains how da Vinci's pursuit of the intersection of art and science made him who he was, and how his life's story can inform our thinking today about innovation and technology. He also dissects the biology of da Vinci's most famous work, the Mona Lisa, and explains why the portrait took 16 years to paint.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Recode Decode: Walter Isaacson, author, 'Leonardo da Vinci'

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