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The Verge

Decoder is a show from The Verge about big ideas — and other problems. Verge editor-in-chief Nilay Patel talks to a diverse cast of innovators and policymakers at the frontiers of business and technology to reveal how they’re navigating an ever-changing landscape, what keeps them up at night, and what it all means for our shared future.

Decoder with Nilay Patel

Today, I’m talking with Mustafa Suleyman, the CEO of Microsoft AI. Mustafa is a fascinating character in the world of AI — he’s been in and out of some pivotal companies like DeepMind, which he cofounded, and Google. He landed at Microsoft through a unique not-quite-acquisition deal of his latest startup, Inflection AI. 
As CEO of Microsoft AI, Mustafa now oversees all of its consumer AI products, including the Copilot app, Bing, and even the Edge browser and MSN — two core components of the web experience that feel like they’re radically changing in a world of AI. The company has also a unique relationship with OpenAI, one that’s grown more complicated of late. That’s a lot of Decoder bait, and we really get into it. 

Links: 

Google DeepMind co-founder joins Microsoft as CEO of its new AI division | The Verge

This is Big Tech’s playbook for swallowing the AI industry | Command Line

The new AI deal: buy everything but the company | NYT

Sam Altman lowers the bar for AGI | The Verge

OpenAI seeks to unlock investment by ditching ‘AGI’ clause with Microsoft | FT

​​Microsoft needs to win back trust | The Verge

Microsoft’s AI boss thinks it’s okay to steal content if it’s on the open web | The Verge

Read Microsoft’s optimistic memo about the future of AI companions | The Verge

​​Microsoft gives Copilot a voice and vision in its biggest redesign yet | The Verge

How Microsoft is thinking about the future of Copilot and AI hardware | The Verge

Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24078862

Credits:
Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James.
The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Microsoft AI CEO Mustafa Suleyman says conversational AI is the next web browser

There’s something strange happening these days in the podcast world — in particular, the way companies that deal in money have been using podcasting as not just an entertainment medium, but a unique kind of hybrid of marketing, thought leadership, and networking. Guest host David Pierce and Vulture podcast critic Nick Quah break it all down. 

Links: 

How Venture Capitalists Use Podcasts to Lure in Founders | Vanity Fair

Your Next Podcast Interview Might Be a Meeting In Disguise | Bloomberg

Elliott launches podcast in attack ploy aimed at Southwest | Axios

How podcasts became the new battleground state | Vulture

In the “Podcast Election,” Trump talked to vastly more people | Edison Research

Podcasts become politician magnets | Axios

Founders of podcast ‘Acquired’ are raising an investment fund | GeekWire

Podcaster-turned-VC Harry Stebbings raises $400m for third fund | Sifted

Credits:
Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James.
The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why every company wants a podcast now

We’ve been talking a lot this year about the changing internet, and what it’s doing to the media ecosystem — particularly journalism, which has taken a backseat to creators and influencers. But the tech platforms themselves have a lot of influence over what those creators and influencers make, too. If you’re a Decoder listener, you’ll recognize this as one of my common themes — the idea that the way we distribute media directly influences the media we make. 

To break this all down, I invited media critic and labor union president Matt Pearce on the show to discuss a great blog he wrote titled “Lessons on media policy at the slaughter-bench of history.” We get into what mechanisms can be used to fund journalism, and how building a direct audience and exercising control over distribution is more pivotal than ever. 

Links: 

Lessons on media policy at the slaughter-bench of history | Matt Pearce

Journalism's fight for survival in a postliterate democracy | Matt Pearce

A deep dive into Google's shady (and shoddy) California journalism deal | Matt Pearce

Google Zero is here — now what? | Decoder

Casey Newton on surviving the great media collapse and what comes next | Decoder

Illusory Truth Effect | The Decision Lab

The people who ruined the internet | The Verge

Another independent site says Google killed its business | The Verge

Google ‘can’t guarantee’ that independent sites will recover | The Verge

Owner of Los Angeles Times Plans ‘Bias Meter’ Next to Coverage | NYT

Credits:
Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James.
The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Platforms need the news, but they're killing it

Alex Heath, Deputy Editor at The Verge, guest hosts this episode of Decoder featuring a live interview with Arm CEO Rene Haas about the future of AI and the semiconductor industry. The two discuss his thoughts on the struggles of Intel, the rumors Arm is developing its own AI chips to rival Nvidia’s, and his thoughts on the incoming Trump administration. 

Links: 

What Arm’s CEO makes of the Intel debacle | Command Line

How Arm conquered the chip market without making a single chip | Decoder

Arm could be the unexpected winner of the AI investment boom | FT

Arm to reportedly launch AI chips by 2025 to capture explosive demand | CNBC

Intel’s CEO is out after only three years | The Verge

What happened to Intel? | The Verge

Nvidia plans ARM-based PC platform to rival Intel, AMD | DigiTimes

Qualcomm x Arm beef escalates | The Verge

Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24084728

Credits:
Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James.
The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Arm CEO Rene Haas on the AI chip race, Intel, and what Trump means for tech

Today we’re talking about antitrust policy and tech, which is at a particularly weird moment as we enter the second Trump administration. A lot of tech policy is at a weird moment, actually, but antitrust might be the weirdest of them all — the pendulum has swung back and forth on antitrust policy pretty wildly over the past few years, and it’s about to swing again under Trump. So I asked Leah Nylen, an antitrust reporter for Bloomberg News and a leading expert on this subject, to come on the show and help break it all down. 

Links: 

Trump’s antitrust trio heralds Big Tech crackdown to continue | Bloomberg

Trump picks FTC Commissioner Andrew Ferguson to lead the agency | Politico

Trump picks Gail Slater to head Justice Department's antitrust division | Reuters

Trump names Brendan Carr as his FCC leader | The Verge

Trump’s FTC pick promises to go after ‘censorship’ from tech companies | The Verge

Breaking down the DOJ’s plan to end Google’s search monopoly | The Verge

US v. Google redux: all the news from the ad tech trial | The Verge

Tech leaders kiss the ring | The Verge

DOJ antitrust chief is ‘overjoyed’ after Google monopoly verdict | Decoder

This is Big Tech’s playbook for swallowing the AI industry | Command Line

Credits:
Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James.
The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tech antitrust is about to get really weird

The Decoder team turns the tables on Nilay and makes him answer your burning listener questions in our end-of-year wrap up special. We also reflect on the year’s biggest Decoder themes, discuss some of the most popular feedback we’ve received, and tease what we have planned for next year. 

Links: 

Here we go: The Verge now has a subscription | The Verge

How The Verge Works | The Vergecast

Intuit asked us to delete part of this Decoder episode | Decoder

What’s really behind Big Tech’s return-to-office mandates? | Decoder

Rabbit CEO Jesse Lyu isn’t thinking too far ahead | Decoder

Transparent Vice | The Verge

UiPath CEO Daniel Dines thinks automation can fight the great resignation | Decoder

Palmer Luckey, American Vulcan | Tablet 

A revolution in how robots learn | The New Yorker

Credits:
Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James.
The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Answering your biggest Decoder questions

Hello, Nilay here. We’re still on winter break; we’ll be back with brand-new Decoder interviews next week, and with our Thursday shows later this month. I’m excited for what we’ve got in the pipeline. I think you’re going to love it.

For today, though, we’re sharing an episode of Peter Kafka’s new show Channels – he’s talking to disinformation researcher Renee DiResta about what’s going on with speech online in an era where platforms seem less inclined to moderate than ever. Peter’s an old friend and Renee is an expert on all this — there’s a lot of core Decoder themes in this one. Enjoy, and we’ll be back in a bit.

Links: 

Channels with Peter Kafka | Apple Podcasts

The Stanford Internet Observatory is being dismantled | Platformer

A major disinformation research center’s future looks uncertain | The Verge

Supreme Court to hear case on how government talks to social platforms | The Verge

GOP targets researchers who study disinformation ahead of 2024 Election | NYT

She warned of ‘peer-to-peer misinformation.’ Congress listened | NYT

Disinformation watchdogs are under pressure. This group refuses to stop | NYT

Credits:
Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James.
The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Studying online bad behavior was hard. It's going to get harder in Trump 2.0

Today, I’m talking with Matt Garman, the CEO of Amazon Web Services. Matt took over as CEO last June — you might recall that we had his predecessor Adam Selipsky on the show just over a year ago. That makes this episode terrific Decoder bait, since I love hearing how new CEOs will decide what to change and what to keep going after they’ve settled into their role.

Links: 

There’s no AI without the cloud, says AWS CEO Adam Selipsky | Decoder

Amazon's AWS to invest $11 bln in Georgia to boost AI infrastructure | Reuters

Netflix’s Ted Sarandos responds to Jake Paul-Mike Tyson glitches | THR

The furious contest to unseat Nvidia as king of AI chips | NYT

Amazon’s moonshot plan to rival Nvidia in AI chips | Bloomberg

Amazon invests another $4 billion in Anthropic | The Verge

Why Netflix never goes down | The Verge

Sam Altman lowers the bar for AGI | The Verge

Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24102212

Credits:
Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James.
The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why CEO Matt Garman is willing to bet AWS on AI

It’s been a messy couple of weeks for big tech companies as the second Trump administration kicks off an unprecedented era of how we think about who controls the internet. Right now, there's a major collision, or maybe merger, happening between billionaire power and state power, and everyone who uses tech to communicate — so, basically everyone — is stuck in the middle. I sat down with law professor and online speech expert Kate Klonick to break it all down. 

Links: 

Welcome to the era of gangster tech regulation | Verge

Trump signs order refusing to enforce TikTok ban for 75 days | Verge

Inside Zuckerberg’s sprint to remake Meta for Trump era | New York Times

The internet’s future is looking bleaker by the day | Wired

Meta is highlighting a splintering global approach to online speech | Verge

Mark Zuckerberg lies about content moderation to Joe Rogan’s face | Verge

Meta’s ‘tipping point’ is about aligning with power | WashPo

Meta is preparing for an autocratic future | Tech Policy Press

Meta surrenders to the right on speech | Platformer

We’re all trying to find the guy who did this | Atlantic

Credits:
Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. 
The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How Meta's MAGA heel turn is a play for global power

Today, I’m talking with Gary Smith, CEO of the networking company Ciena. You probably aren’t familiar with Ciena — the company isn’t really a household name. But every internet user has relied on the company’s products; Ciena makes the hardware and software that makes the fiber optic cables connecting the world light up with data. 

That’s everything from local fiber networks for broadband ISPs to the massive undersea cables that connect continents. There’s a high probability that this very podcast came to you over a Ciena network, in fact — the company is everywhere. That means almost every single Decoder idea is right here, sitting on the backbone of the internet.

Links: 

What is WDM or DWDM? | Ciena

Southern Cross achieves first 1 Tb/s Transmission across Pacific with Ciena | Ciena

The invisible seafaring industry that keeps the internet afloat | Verge

The internet really is a series of tubes | Vergecast

Meta is building the ‘mother of all’ subsea cables | Verge

Ciena CEO: Prepare for the AI wave | Fierce Network

The secret life of the 500-plus cables that run the internet CNET

Fiber-Optic Technology Draws Record Stock Value | NYT

Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24115288

Credits:
Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James.
The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How Ciena keeps the internet online, with CEO Gary Smith

I'm talking to Evan Smith, who started Altana in 2019 because he predicted the first wave of globalized manufacturing and trade would end, and that companies would want new powerful tools to adapt their supply chains as the world grew more complex. Here in 2025, that looks like a pretty good bet — even if the way it's playing out is more stressful and chaotic than anyone really wants it to be.

There are some big, unsettling ideas here, but talking about them directly and with clarity at least made me feel like I had a framework to understand the endless on-again, off-again news cycle on tariffs and trade.

Links: 

Globalization 2.0 Manifesto | Altana

The ‘giant sucking sound’ of NAFTA | The Conversation

‘Offensive Realism’: The never-ending struggle for power | American Diplomacy (2002)

Foreign Affairs Big Mac I | NYT (1996)

The end of the Golden Arches Doctrine | Financial Times

Trump could scale back tariffs, Lutnick says | CNBC

China joined rule-based trading system — then broke the rules | Politico

Open Source and China: Inverting Copyright? | Wisconsin International Law Journal

How the US lost out on iPhone work | NYT

Credits:
Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 
The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How Trump's tariff chaos is already changing global trade

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