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University of Chicago Podcast Network

We investigate how capitalism is—or more often isn’t—working in our world today.

Hosted by economist Luigi Zingales and business journalist Bethany McLean, our podcast explains why capitalism can go wrong and what we can do to fix it.

Send us your questions or comments by emailing capitalisntpod@gmail.com

Cover photo attributions: https://www.chicagobooth.edu/research/stigler/about/capitalisnt.

Capitalisn't

For every member of the Forbes 400, there are more than 4,000 private business owners worth at least $10 million. You probably have never heard of any of them.

They own the beer distributorship in your town, the dental group with four offices, the HVAC trucks that passed your house this morning. A decade inside anonymized IRS data turned up three million of them, and the version of that story running in many outlets this month is the hopeful one: fortunes still being built in unglamorous industries, far from the coasts, by people with no degree and no connections. The American Dream, alive and hiding in plain sight.

That is one part of what the data says. The other part is that the largest fortunes are concentrated where the law limits who can compete at all, and the owners have the political weight to keep it there. Whether the first part redeems the second is the entire argument here. The economist who found the numbers doesn’t know for sure whether it’s a good or worrying story.

Eric Zwick is the Joel F. Gemunder Professor of Economics and Finance at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business and co-author, with Owen Zidar of Princeton University, of “The Everywhere Millionaire: Who Is Really Rich in America and How They Got There”: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250378507/theeverywheremillionaire/ 

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Why Congress Protects Car Dealers More Than Elon Musk - ft. Eric Zwick

The drugs in your medicine cabinet were probably discovered on your dime, in a university lab, with NIH money. You don't hold the patent. You don't set the price. Same story with the touchscreen, the GPS and the voice assistant in your pocket.

The public often helps fund breakthroughs, while private companies claim all the profits. Economist Mariana Mazzucato thinks it’s time to renegotiate. In “The Common Good Economy: A New Compass”, she makes the case for reshaping markets around the common good. 

Luigi Zingales and Bethany McLean press the uncomfortable question: can a government captured by business really be trusted to change the rules?

You can find “The Common Good Economy: A New Compass” here: https://marianamazzucato.com/books/the-common-good-economy/the-common-good-economy-us/ 

Mariana Mazzucato is a Professor at University College London, Founding Director of the UCL Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose and author of “The Common Good Economy: A New Compass”.

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Can Capitalism Serve the Common Good? - ft. Mariana Mazzucato

AI is coming for your job; AI isn't coming for your job. Economist Luis Garicano thinks both camps are asking the wrong question. 

In Messy Jobs: The Work That AI Cannot Reach, Garicano and co-authors Jin Li and Yanhui Wu argue that all knowledge work varies along a dimension of “messiness”, and that the jobs which survive won't be the ones that are hardest, but the messiest. Bethany McLean and Luigi Zingales press Garicano on where that framework holds and where it breaks. 

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The One Thing That Could Decide If AI Takes Your Job - Ft. Luis Garicano

For most of the last century liberal democracies offered a simple deal: the economy grows and, if you work hard, you get a fair shot at the rewards. According to 2024 Nobel Prize-winning economist Daron Acemoglu, that deal is broken.

Acemoglu joins Bethany McLean and Luigi Zingales to discuss his new book, What Happened to Liberal Democracy?, and why the system that delivered unprecedented freedom and prosperity abandoned the working class in favor of the college-educated elite. 

Acemoglu makes the case that things will only get worse as AI is being designed to replace human labor, driving wage stagnation and economic anxiety. But he thinks we can still turn things around, and he brought his solutions to our podcast.

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Can Liberalism Survive This Kind of Capitalism? - ft. Daron Acemoglu

Amazon went public three years after it was founded. SpaceX stayed private for 24 years. What changed and why does it matter?

The standard story is that companies avoid an IPO because public markets carry too many government rules and too many lawyers looking to sue. Renee Jones, law professor, former SEC official, and author of the new book Untamed Unicorns: Why Startup Finance Is Broken and How to Fix It, makes the opposite case.

Jones argues what changed was the deregulation of private markets, driven by decades of industry lobbying. Due to decisions in Washington, companies became able to raise billions privately and there was no reason to go public . You could get the capital and keep total control, without ever having to disclose anything to regulators.

If you've never bought a share of a startup, you might assume none of this touches you. But most of the money flowing into these private markets comes from pension funds and retirement accounts, meaning ordinary savers are already invested in companies whose books they'll never see.

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How Washington Privatized The Capital Market - ft. Renée Jones

The Republican Party is often associated with free-market fundamentalism, deregulation, and tax cuts. But a new faction on the right is challenging that consensus.

In this episode, Bethany and Luigi sit down with Chris Griswold, the Policy Director at American Compass. Drawing on Catholic social teaching, Griswold argues that we need to stop viewing our economy as a force of nature or an end unto itself, but a tool meant to serve human flourishing and dignity. 

The conversation explores if the traditional neoliberal regime has failed working-class Americans, and whether policy should step in to channel capital toward productive uses. To fix our current system, Griswold argues we need to go back to a first-principles question: What is capitalism, or any economy for that matter, actually for?

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A Conservative's Attack On Neoliberalism - Ft. Chris Griswold

Were the foundations of American governance engineered to protect the wealthy? Harvard Law professor Michael Klarman argues that the US Constitution was actually a counter-revolutionary coup to constrain democracy rather than protect it. 

This episode explores how debt, taxes, and money influenced the drafting of America's founding document. And whether a wealthy elite bypassed democratic institutions to secure their own financial interests and reduce populist power.

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Was The Constitution An Anti-Democratic Coup? - ft. Michael Klarman

Is personal finance rigged against ordinary people? Economists John Campbell and Tarun Ramadorai argue the system rewards the wealthy and financially savvy at the expense of everyone else. 

Their book Fixed points to a troubling pattern: the fees you avoid by never overdrafting, or by refinancing on time, are paid for by people who don't, and they warn that the resulting resentment is fueling political discontent.

But there is a tension at the heart of their argument. They don't want the government running finance or setting prices, yet they call for far more muscular rules. So what exactly are they proposing, and why do they insist it would expand your choices rather than limit them?

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Our Personal Finance Mistakes Are The Industry's Profits - ft. John Campbell & Tarun Ramadorai

Free trade was never actually free? That's the case Katherine Tai, Joe Biden's former U.S. Trade Representative, brings Bethany McLean and Luigi Zingales this week. 

For decades, the economic consensus treated free trade as an engine for cheaper goods and faster growth. But, Tai argues, this system actually relies on ignored externalities, allowing multinational corporations to reap the benefits of zero regulation while workers and the environment absorb the costs.

Zingales goes further, arguing the whole system isn't free trade at all, but something he calls “captured trade”. So who exactly is that trade free for and what exactly is it free from? Tai walks through the hidden machinery most people never see, and what she calls a plan for a worker-centered trade policy.

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✉️ Email your questions and comments to capitalisntpod@gmail.com

 
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Was Free Trade Ever Really Free? - ft. Fmr. Biden Trade Rep. Katherine Tai

Corporations are people in the eyes of the law. But how did that happen, and why does it hand them rights you don't have? 

UCLA law professor Adam Winkler, author of "We the Corporations", traces a 200-year campaign by business to win the constitutional rights of human beings. Bethany McLean and Luigi Zingales press him on what Zingales calls an incredible trick. Corporations insist they're separate from their owners when that shields owners from blame, then argue they're like people when they want to spend on elections or dodge a rule. 

Winkler traces how the Fourteenth Amendment, written after the Civil War to protect the newly freed, became a tool for railroads and banks instead. He even describes a lawyer who, by his account, lied to the Supreme Court, producing a journal he claimed proved the amendment was meant for corporations. 

Zingales pushes on what comes next: could AI itself qualify for legal personhood, and would that shield big tech from blame? When we ask Winkler for a shred of hope that the long arc doesn't simply keep favoring business, the answer is far shorter and blunter than expected. 

Connect with us:

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📱 Follow Capitalisn’t on Instagram & TikTok

✉️ Email your questions and comments to capitalisntpod@gmail.com

 
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Why Corporations Always Win At The Supreme Court - ft. Adam Winkler

Many are praising a recent Business Roundtable announcement that corporations should serve stakeholders as well as shareholders. On the surface, this may seem like a historic reversal of the status quo that has held since Milton Friedman's famous "shareholder primacy" theory was put forward in the 70s. But it's not that simple.

On this episode, Kate and Luigi layout the history of this theory, revealing that it's really been around for as long as we've been asking the most fundamental question in business: what is the purpose of a corporation? They explore that question, and interrogate the possible underlying motives behind the Business Roundtable's decision.

 
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Shareholders vs. Stakeholders

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