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BBC Radio 5 Live

Murderers. Fraudsters. Internet trolls. This is a podcast about people who do terrible things, and the science of humanity’s dark side.

Series producer: Louisa Field 
Artwork: Kingsley Nebechi 
Music: Matt Chandler 
Editors: Anna Lacey and Martin Smith
Academic Consultants for The Open University: 
Dr Ailsa Strathie
Dr Sarah Laurence
Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland 
Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins
 
Bad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds.

Bad People

Rob Parkes’ ex-wife lied about him being a drug dealer and a gang member. Then she tried to hire a hitman to have him killed.

Rob tells his remarkable story of abuse, narrow escapes and survival.

Presented by journalist and true crime documentary maker Amber Haque and criminal psychologist Dr Julia Shaw.

Producers: James Shield and Danita McIntyre
Executive Producers: Joe Kent and Innes Bowen
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioner: Izzy Lee-Poulton

Bad People is a BBC Studios production for BBC Sounds

123. My ex tried to have me killed

Former Metropolitan Police officer, Wayne Couzens, kidnapped, raped and murdered Sarah Everard, in March, 2021.

Hosts Amber Haque and Dr Julia Shaw discuss the findings of The Angiolini Inquiry, and how the crime of indecent exposure may indicate a potential trajectory towards even more serious sexual and violent offending.

Producer: Lorna Reader
Executive Producers: Innes Bowen and Joe Kent
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioner: Izzy Lee-Poulton

Bad People is a BBC Studios production for BBC Sounds.

124. Flashers: The case of Wayne Couzens

How one of the first Tesco Clubcards was used to pay off a blackmailer threatening to poison frozen food. And how that Clubcard was used to catch him.

Presented by journalist and true crime documentary maker Amber Haque and criminal psychologist Dr Julia Shaw.

Producer: Ciaran Tracey with help from James Shield
Executive Producer: Innes Bowen
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioner: Izzy Lee-Poulton

Bad People is a BBC Studios production for BBC Sounds

125. The Secret History of the Clubcard

Murders. Sex offenders. Corporate psychopaths. Cannibals. This is a podcast about the people we consider to be the worst around.

Welcome to Bad People

In the summer of 1984 a serial killer was on the loose in Los Angeles. Richard Ramirez or the ‘night stalker’ as he would come to be known, broke into people’s houses as they slept and then proceeded to rape, torture and murder whoever was inside. He would sometimes draw satanic pentagrams on the victims’ bodies, and use their own blood to write messages on the wall.

During his trial, Ramirez gained a large group of admirers, so-called ‘murder-groupies’. He would go on to receive hundreds of letters while in prison and even got married while on death row. Ramirez is not alone in getting this kind of romantic attention. Cult leader Charles Manson, Norwegian mass murderer Anders Breivik and Danish killer Peter Madsen have all received fan-mail.

On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen uncover why some women seek out romantic relationships with men who have committed horrific crimes.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence, Satanism and murder.

Archive credits: This episode includes audio from DailyMotion, NBC Universal and KRON4.

CREDITS:

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen 
Producer: Louisa Field
Assistant Producer: Simona Rata
Music: Matt Chandler
Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose
Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins
Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

 #BadPeople_BBC

1. The Nightstalker: Who marries a serial killer?

A high school house party is in full swing in the quiet town of Peachland, Canada. Suddenly, hysterical screams are heard. 16-year-old Ashlee Hyatt has been stabbed to death in the middle of the driveway.

Piece by piece we learn about the girl who is ultimately convicted of manslaughter, relating it to the story of the Canadian “Barbie” serial killer, Karla Homolka and notorious Hungarian countess Elizabeth Báthory.

Murder is a typically committed by men, and the victims are mostly other men. Globally, women represent less than 5 percent of perpetrators. On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss when and how women kill.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence and murder.

Archive credits: This episode includes audio from SkyTV, Castanet News and National Geographic.

CREDITS:

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen 
Producer: Louisa Field
Assistant Producer: Simona Rata
Music: Matt Chandler
Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose
Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins
Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

 #BadPeople_BBC

2. Murder in Peachland: When do women kill?

John was home alone with his father when he suddenly remembers being abused as a child. In a fit of rage he strangles his father to death.

In 2017 John wrote to Julia from prison. He had an unnerving inkling – maybe he hadn't been abused by his father, maybe everything he thought he knew about why he killed his dad was wrong. 

On this episode of Bad People, hosts Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss whether we can trust our own memories and the consequences of ‘false memories’. They discuss the work of professor Elizabeth Loftus who pioneered the work on false memories, as well as the research Julia has conducted on implanting false memories of committing crime.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to murder and child abuse.

CREDITS:

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen 
Producer: Louisa Field
Assistant Producer: Simona Rata
Music: Matt Chandler
Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose
Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins
Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

 #BadPeople_BBC

3. Remembering Monsters: Can we trust memories?

Police officer Gilberto Valle opens the door to find his house surrounded by the FBI. His wife had discovered gruesome stories of kidnap and cannibalism that Valle had written about more than 100 women in an online forum.

Among the stories, the wife found a detailed description of how Valle wanted to cook her alive and eat her. Valle argued that he never intended to hurt anyone and that it was all fantasy. He was sentenced to life in prison but was later released. He became known as the “cannibal cop”.

On this episode of Bad People, hosts Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss whether we should police people’s thoughts, and ask whether we should fear our own dark fantasies. What is the line between fiction and reality?

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to murder, cannibalism and sexual violence. 

Archive credits: This episode contains audio from Crime Watch Daily and HBO Documentary Films.

CREDITS:

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen 
Producer: Louisa Field
Assistant Producer: Simona Rata
Music: Matt Chandler
Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose
Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins
Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

 #BadPeople_BBC

4. Cannibal Cop: What is your darkest fantasy?

A man breaks into Jennifer Thompson’s apartment, severs her phone wires and rapes her. Jennifer studies his face, hoping to remember enough details so that she can identify him later. 

In a police line-up, Jennifer is able to point out Ronald Cotton as her rapist and in two separate trials he is convicted of rape and burglary. He is sentenced to life in prison plus fifty-four years. It seems like the case is resolved. There’s only one problem: Cotton is innocent. 

On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss why we should all be weary of our memory when identifying a person of a different race.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence.

Archive credits: This episode contains audio from CBS News and CDI (La Ciudad de Ias Ideas) International Festival.

CREDITS:

Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen 
Producer: Louisa Field
Assistant Producer: Simona Rata
Music: Matt Chandler
Series Editor: Rami Tzabar

Commissioning Producer: Hannah Rose
Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins
Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps

Bad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds

 #BadPeople_BBC

5. The Wrong Man: What causes misidentification?

NOTE – Discussion of this case was correct at the time of broadcast. An update – which includes the exoneration of the three boys – is outlined below.

Two six-year-old boys and a 5-year-old girl, Silje, are on a playground in the Norwegian town Trondheim. The next day Silje is found dead. The boys had punched and kicked the five-year-old girl before stripping off her clothes and leaving her to die. How does this Norwegian case, and it’s response, compare to the famous case of James Bulger in the UK?

At what age should we be held responsible for our actions? Nations struggle to decide how to answer this question, and some community responses shatter our expectations - for better or for worse.

In this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss the age-old debate of nature versus nurture.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to murder and child abuse.

Update: This case was reopened after Norwegian broadcaster NRK released a documentary series called ‘Murder in the Sledge’. It in, the investigation revealed that the boys were never formally questioned, and thus they were never interviewed by police while being fully informed of their rights. The resulting criticism led to the public prosecutor ordering a resumption of the case. On February 17th 2023, the public prosecutor stated that “on the basis of the investigation that has been carried out, we have not been able to conclude who inflicted violence on Silje.” The state concluded that the three boys who were blamed for the death of a five-year-old girl in Trondheim in 1994 are “to be considered innocent.”

Presenters: Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen

Producer: Louisa Field

Assistant producer: Simona Rata

Editor: Rami Tzabar

Music: Matt Chandler

#BadPeople_BBC

Archive credits: This episode contains audio from police tapes.

6. When Children Kill: Should we imprison kids?

In the 1930s in Tuskegee, Alabama, hundreds of men signed up to a medical study which offered free transportation to and from hospitals, free hot lunches and free medicine for most diseases.

But the men were not informed of their diagnosis or treated for the disease that was killing them - syphilis. 

This study went on for 40 years and 128 men died from syphilis and related conditions.

On this episode of Bad People, Dr. Julia Shaw and comedian Sofie Hagen discuss whether or not the Tuskegee syphilis study is impacting the uptake of the COVID vaccine in America today, how racism impacts medical research, and the importance of tackling everyday racism.

This episode includes audio from NBC news, ABC news, and White House Television.

Warning: This episode contains strong language and discussion of racism.
 
CREDITS
Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen
Producer: Caroline Steel
Artwork: Kingsley Nebechi
Music: Matt Chandler
Series Editor: Rami Tzabar
Academic Consultants for The Open University:
Dr. Zoe Walkington
Dr. Camilla Elphick
Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland
Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins
Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps
Bad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds
#BadPeople_BBC

29. Tuskegee Trauma: How lethal is medical racism?

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