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The Telegraph

The world’s most listened to, and award-winning, podcast covering the war in Ukraine.

Every weekday, the Telegraph's top journalists analyse the conflict from all angles – just as they have since Russia's full-scale invasion in 2022, when tanks, jets and troops crossed Ukraine's borders.

Downloaded over 120 million times and trusted by listeners worldwide, the team considers military strategy, history, weaponry, economics, refugee crises, culture, and daily life in Vladimir Putin's autocratic Russia and Volodymyr Zelensky's democratic Ukraine. Our correspondents on the ground talk to experts and civilians to cover every aspect of Russia's brutal invasion.

We are also available in both Ukrainian and Russian, so that people on both sides of the battle lines and across the region – including Central Asia and the Caucasus – have access to accurate reporting. We use cutting-edge AI technology to make this possible. Just search Україна: Останні Новини (Ukr) and Украина: Последние Новости (Ru) on your on your preferred podcast app to find them. Or find them here: https://linktr.ee/ukrainethelatest

A new weekly newsletter is also available, where we answer your questions, provide recommended reading, and give exclusive analysis and behind-the-scenes insights – plus maps of the frontlines and diagrams of weapons to complement our daily reporting. It’s free for everyone, including non-subscribers. Join here: https://secure.telegraph.co.uk/customer/secure/newsletter/ukraine/

Telegraph subscribers get early access to bonus episodes of Ukraine: The Latest and our sister podcast Battle Lines. You can subscribe within The Telegraph app, or tap on ‘Already a subscriber’ at the top of this page to log in to link your existing subscription. For more information, head to: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/contact-us/telegraph-subscription-bonus-content-apple-podcasts/

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Ukraine: The Latest

Day 1,275.

Today, as Russia’s foreign minister accuses the Coalition of the Willing of “undermining” efforts to secure peace in Ukraine – comments later described as nothing but “noise” – Vladimir Putin makes clear how serious he is about negotiating peace by launching another mass aerial attack. Far from ending the war, we hear how Donald Trump is apparently going to “step back” from peace talks “for now”. Plus, we look at how Ukraine has demonstrated the next stage of drone development with a strike on Russian forces in the Black Sea, and interview the commander of Finland’s armed forces.

Contributors:

Dominic Nicholls (Associate Editor of Defence). @DomNicholls on X.

Francis Dearnley (Executive Editor for Audio). @FrancisDearnley on X.

With thanks to the Commander of the Finnish Army, Lt Gen Pasi Välimäki

Content Referenced:

US will only give ‘minimal’ security guarantees to Ukraine, Europe warned (The Telegraph):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/08/21/us-elbridge-colby-minimal-security-guarantees-ukraine/ 

Trump steps back from Russia and Ukraine peace talks for now, sources say (The Guardian):

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/aug/21/trump-ukraine-russia-peace-talks 

Why Steve Witkoff Is Trump’s Master of Disaster (Foreign Policy):

https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/08/19/steve-witkoff-trump-putin-russia-ukraine-war-diplomacy 

Witkoff delivered Russian medal from Putin to family of American who was killed fighting for Russia in 2024 (CNN):

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/08/20/politics/witkoff-delivered-medal-from-putin-family-american-killed 

A Letter to America’s Discarded Public Servants (William J Burns in The Atlantic):

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2025/10/trump-retribution-public-servants/683914/

SIGN UP TO THE NEW ‘UKRAINE: THE LATEST’ WEEKLY NEWSLETTER:

https://secure.telegraph.co.uk/customer/secure/newsletter/ukraine/ 

Each week, Dom Nicholls and Francis Dearnley answer your questions, provide recommended reading, and give exclusive analysis and behind-the-scenes insights – plus maps of the frontlines and diagrams of weapons to complement our daily reporting. It’s free for everyone, including non-subscribers.

Subscribe: telegraph.co.uk/ukrainethelatest

Email: ukrainepod@telegraph.co.uk

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Russia bombs American factory in one of war’s largest attacks, defying Trump peace efforts

Day 1,274.

Today, as President Donald Trump says the US may provide air support to back a Ukraine peace deal, we assess reports that as many as 10 European countries are considering putting boots on the ground if Russia agrees to end its war. Then we take a step back and try to make sense of the historic past few days. What, if anything, has changed? Then we hear a dispatch Adelie recorded in Ukraine at the funeral of journalist Victoria Roshchyna.

Contributors:

Francis Dearnley (Executive Editor for Audio). @FrancisDearnley on X.

Dominic Nicholls (Associate Editor of Defence). @DomNicholls on X.

Adélie Pojzman-Pontay (Journalist and Producer). @adeliepjz on X.

Content Referenced:

US air force could police Ukraine’s skies to ensure peace (The Telegraph):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/08/19/us-air-force-police-ukraine-skies-peace-deal-russia-trump/ 

Ten European countries ‘ready’ to send forces to Ukraine (The Telegraph):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/08/20/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news-trump-peace/ 

‘Nearly two million more casualties’: The numbers that show Russia is years from victory (Roland Oliphant in The Telegraph):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/08/19/russia-is-years-from-victory-trump-putin/ 

Dance Of The Flamingos: Ukraine’s FP-5 Heavy Cruise Missile (Covert Shores):

http://www.hisutton.com/Ukrainian-FP-15-Flamingo-Cruise-Missile.html

Trump Revokes Security Clearances of 37 Former and Current Officials (New York Times):

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/19/us/politics/trump-security-clearances.html 

‘The Steel Porcupine’ – Russia's campaign of extermination by Benjamin I. Goldhagen:

https://www.thesteelporcupine.com/ 

SIGN UP TO THE NEW ‘UKRAINE: THE LATEST’ WEEKLY NEWSLETTER:

https://secure.telegraph.co.uk/customer/secure/newsletter/ukraine/ 

Each week, Dom Nicholls and Francis Dearnley answer your questions, provide recommended reading, and give exclusive analysis and behind-the-scenes insights – plus maps of the frontlines and diagrams of weapons to complement our daily reporting. It’s free for everyone, including non-subscribers.

Subscribe: telegraph.co.uk/ukrainethelatest

Email: ukrainepod@telegraph.co.uk

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

US air force ‘could police Ukraine's skies’ as 10 European nations 'ready' to send peacekeeping forces & the numbers that show Russia is years from victory

Day 1,273.

Today, as we get more clarity on what the Europeans proposed to Donald Trump in the historic White House summit yesterday, we hear the latest from the battlefront as Russian progress appears to have been stymied, and then do a deep dive into Moscow’s reaction to this week’s diplomatic developments. What exactly are they signalling?

Contributors:

Francis Dearnley (Executive Editor for Audio). @FrancisDearnley on X.

Dominic Nicholls (Associate Editor of Defence). @DomNicholls on X.

James Kilner (Foreign Correspondent). @jkjourno on X.

Content Referenced:

Ukraine ‘offers Trump $100bn arms deal’ for security guarantees (The Telegraph):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/08/19/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news-trump-peace/ 

Frank Gardner’s security guarantees reflections (BBC):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cz93ve1p952t 

SIGN UP TO THE NEW ‘UKRAINE: THE LATEST’ WEEKLY NEWSLETTER:

https://secure.telegraph.co.uk/customer/secure/newsletter/ukraine/ 

Each week, Dom Nicholls and Francis Dearnley answer your questions, provide recommended reading, and give exclusive analysis and behind-the-scenes insights – plus maps of the frontlines and diagrams of weapons to complement our daily reporting. It’s free for everyone, including non-subscribers.

NOW AVAILABLE IN NEW LANGUAGES:

The Telegraph has launched translated versions of Ukraine: The Latest in Ukrainian and Russian, making its reporting accessible to audiences on both sides of the battle lines and across the wider region, including Central Asia and the Caucasus. Just search Україна: Останні Новини (Ukr) and Украина: Последние Новости (Ru) on your on your preferred podcast app to find them. Listen here: https://linktr.ee/ukrainethelatest

Subscribe: telegraph.co.uk/ukrainethelatest

Email: ukrainepod@telegraph.co.uk

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Ukraine ‘offers Trump $100bn arms deal’ for security guarantees & leaders debate venues for Putin-Zelensky talks

In this special episode, recorded just after an unprecedented White House summit, we analyse the impact on President Volodymyr Zelensky and his European allies. Was the meeting a diplomatic win for Ukraine? How credible is Donald Trump’s pledge to commit US forces to defend Ukraine in a future peace deal? And could it benefit Zelensky strategically to meet Vladimir Putin without the American President at the table?

Contributors:

Francis Dearnley (Executive Editor for Audio). @FrancisDearnley on X.

Dominic Nicholls (Associate Editor of Defence). @DomNicholls on X.

Connor Stringer (Deputy US Editor). @connor_stringer on X.

SIGN UP TO THE NEW ‘UKRAINE: THE LATEST’ WEEKLY NEWSLETTER:

https://secure.telegraph.co.uk/customer/secure/newsletter/ukraine/ 

Each week, Dom Nicholls and Francis Dearnley answer your questions, provide recommended reading, and give exclusive analysis and behind-the-scenes insights – plus maps of the frontlines and diagrams of weapons to complement our daily reporting. It’s free for everyone, including non-subscribers.

NOW AVAILABLE IN NEW LANGUAGES:

The Telegraph has launched translated versions of Ukraine: The Latest in Ukrainian and Russian, making its reporting accessible to audiences on both sides of the battle lines and across the wider region, including Central Asia and the Caucasus. Just search Україна: Останні Новини (Ukr) and Украина: Последние Новости (Ru) on your on your preferred podcast app to find them. Listen here: https://linktr.ee/ukrainethelatest

Subscribe: telegraph.co.uk/ukrainethelatest

Email: ukrainepod@telegraph.co.uk

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

BONUS: Putin and Zelensky to meet within two weeks & US 'to protect Ukraine as part of a peace deal'

Day 1,272.

Today, after the Trump and Putin summit in the United States ends without accord – but with certain principles for peace seemingly agreed between them – we look ahead to the vital meeting between Zelensky, Trump, and European leaders in the White House, and consider why the proposal for Ukraine to cede Donbas would leave Ukraine strategically exposed.

We will be releasing a bonus episode immediately after the summit.

Contributors:

Francis Dearnley (Executive Editor for Audio). @FrancisDearnley on X.

Dominic Nicholls (Associate Editor of Defence). @DomNicholls on X.

Roland Oliphant (Senior Foreign Analyst). @RolandOliphant on X.

Content Referenced:

In maps: Why the entire peace deal hangs on this small strip of Ukraine (Roland Oliphant in The Telegraph):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/08/18/maps-why-entire-peace-deal-hangs-on-small-strip-ukraine/ 

Russia taunts Ukraine by flying US flag on front line:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/08/18/russia-taunts-ukraine-american-flag-front-line/ 

Telegraph Ukraine Live Blog:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/08/18/ukraine-russia-war-trump-zelensky-meeting-latest-news/ 

SIGN UP TO THE NEW ‘UKRAINE: THE LATEST’ WEEKLY NEWSLETTER:

https://secure.telegraph.co.uk/customer/secure/newsletter/ukraine/ 

Each week, Dom Nicholls and Francis Dearnley answer your questions, provide recommended reading, and give exclusive analysis and behind-the-scenes insights – plus maps of the frontlines and diagrams of weapons to complement our daily reporting. It’s free for everyone, including non-subscribers.

NOW AVAILABLE IN NEW LANGUAGES:

The Telegraph has launched translated versions of Ukraine: The Latest in Ukrainian and Russian, making its reporting accessible to audiences on both sides of the battle lines and across the wider region, including Central Asia and the Caucasus. Just search Україна: Останні Новини (Ukr) and Украина: Последние Новости (Ru) on your on your preferred podcast app to find them. Listen here: https://linktr.ee/ukrainethelatest

Subscribe: telegraph.co.uk/ukrainethelatest

Email: ukrainepod@telegraph.co.uk

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

‘One of the most vital days since the Soviet Union collapsed’: Russia kills civilians as Trump rules out Ukraine reclaiming Crimea or joining NATO ahead of Zelensky White House talks

In a special episode recorded just minutes after the summit in Alaska between Presidents Putin and Trump, we discuss what it was like in the room, and the ramifications of a meeting which leaves more questions than answers. What happens next?

Contributors:

Francis Dearnley (Executive Editor for Audio). @FrancisDearnley on X.

Dominic Nicholls (Associate Editor of Defence). @DomNicholls on X.

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

BONUS: Putin and Trump fail to reach Ukraine peace deal

Day 1,269.

Today, as the world awaits what some say could be the most consequential summit for Europe since the end of the Second World War, we hear the latest updates live from Alaska, from journalists, experts, and protestors gathering there. Plus, we assess the fast-moving situation on the battlefield, and provide our regular update on the occupied territories.

Contributors:

Francis Dearnley (Executive Editor for Audio). @FrancisDearnley on X.

Dominic Nicholls (Associate Editor of Defence). @DomNicholls on X.

Dr. Jade McGlynn (War Studies Department of King's College). @DrJadeMcGlynn on X.

With thanks to Ostap Yarysh, Media Advisor at Razom for Ukraine. @OstapYarysh on X.

Content Referenced:

Dom’s Video: Hundreds of anti-Trump protesters flood Anchorage (The Telegraph):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/2025/08/15/hundreds-of-anti-trump-protesters-flood-anchorage/ 

Lavrov goads Ukraine with Soviet jumper on Alaska arrival (The Telegraph):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/2025/08/15/trump-meet-putin-ukraine-summit-latest-news/ 

Putin prepares nuclear missile tests in veiled threat to West (The Telegraph):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/08/15/putin-prepares-nuclear-missile-tests-ukraine-peace-talks/ 

The enduring allure of the summit (Sergey Radchenko in Engelsberg Ideas):

https://engelsbergideas.com/essays/the-enduring-allure-of-the-summit/

SIGN UP TO THE NEW ‘UKRAINE: THE LATEST’ WEEKLY NEWSLETTER:

https://secure.telegraph.co.uk/customer/secure/newsletter/ukraine/ 

Each week, Dom Nicholls and Francis Dearnley answer your questions, provide recommended reading, and give exclusive analysis and behind-the-scenes insights – plus maps of the frontlines and diagrams of weapons to complement our daily reporting. It’s free for everyone, including non-subscribers.

NOW AVAILABLE IN NEW LANGUAGES:

The Telegraph has launched translated versions of Ukraine: The Latest in Ukrainian and Russian, making its reporting accessible to audiences on both sides of the battle lines and across the wider region, including Central Asia and the Caucasus. Just search Україна: Останні Новини (Ukr) and Украина: Последние Новости (Ru) on your on your preferred podcast app to find them. Listen here: https://linktr.ee/ukrainethelatest

Subscribe: telegraph.co.uk/ukrainethelatest

Email: ukrainepod@telegraph.co.uk

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Putin ‘to test nuclear missiles’ ahead of Trump Alaska summit

Day 1,268.

Today, as reports suggest Russian advances near Pokrovsk have “stalled”, we hear the contrasting European and American positions as we approach the summit in Alaska, including suggestions of a new minerals deal for Russia and a ‘West Bank-style occupation of parts of Ukraine’. Then you’ll hear Dom’s dispatch from Odesa, where he joined an anti-aircraft unit shooting down Russian drones.

Contributors:

Francis Dearnley (Executive Editor for Audio). @FrancisDearnley on X.

James Rothwell (Berlin Correspondent). @JamesERothwell on X.

Dominic Nicholls (Associate Editor of Defence). @DomNicholls on X.

Connor Stringer (Acting Deputy US Editor). @connor_stringer on X.

Content Referenced:

[DOM’S VIDEO] I joined a Ukrainian unit shooting down Russian drones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkkdWu7Xt7o 

Trump to offer Putin minerals for peace (The Telegraph):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/news/2025/08/13/trump-to-present-minerals-deal-to-putin-in-alaska/ 

Trump and Putin to hold press conference after Alaska talks (The Telegraph):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/08/14/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news-zelenky-starmer-meeting/ 

Zelensky faces his ‘moment of maximum pressure’ (Financial Times):

https://shorturl.at/MZ1Yv 

US and Russia ‘propose West Bank-style occupation of Ukraine’ (The Times):

https://www.thetimes.com/us/american-politics/article/us-russia-deal-west-bank-occupation-ukraine-wfvnt6v6f?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1755093882

SIGN UP TO THE NEW ‘UKRAINE: THE LATEST’ WEEKLY NEWSLETTER:

https://secure.telegraph.co.uk/customer/secure/newsletter/ukraine/ 

Each week, Dom Nicholls and Francis Dearnley answer your questions, provide recommended reading, and give exclusive analysis and behind-the-scenes insights – plus maps of the frontlines and diagrams of weapons to complement our daily reporting. It’s free for everyone, including non-subscribers.

NOW AVAILABLE IN NEW LANGUAGES:

The Telegraph has launched translated versions of Ukraine: The Latest in Ukrainian and Russian, making its reporting accessible to audiences on both sides of the battle lines and across the wider region, including Central Asia and the Caucasus. Just search Україна: Останні Новини (Ukr) and Украина: Последние Новости (Ru) on your on your preferred podcast app to find them. Listen here: https://linktr.ee/ukrainethelatest

Subscribe: telegraph.co.uk/ukrainethelatest

Email: ukrainepod@telegraph.co.uk

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Trump proposes West Bank-style occupation of Ukraine & offers Putin minerals for peace

Day 1,267.

Today, as reports flood in of Russian units being hunted deep within Ukraine, we reveal more details of the operation, and assess its significance for the Trump-Putin summit on Friday. Then we hear more from Adelie about her reporting trip to Ukraine, and discuss a new report into what Europe can do for its long-term strategic autonomy. 

Contributors:

Francis Dearnley (Executive Editor for Audio). @FrancisDearnley on X.

Adélie Pojzman-Pontay (Journalist and Producer). @adeliepjz on X.

Mykola Kuzmin (Researcher and Translator).

With thanks to our guest David Kirichenko (@DVKirichenko on X.)

Content Referenced:

‘European Defence Autonomy: Identifying Key Companies and Projects to Replace US Capabilities’ (Report by David Kirichenko & Mykola Kuzmin):

https://henryjacksonsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/08/HJS-European-Defence-Autonomy-Report-web.pdf 

Learn More about Metal detector "TREMBITA":

https://trembita.pro/en/ 

Telegraph Live Blog of Today’s Talks:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/08/13/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news40/ 

Shoved into vans, slashing tyres: Ukrainians balk at conscription (Financial Times):

https://www.ft.com/content/9a8e3c7f-2822-4d5e-a65b-9949ffe6631f

Ukraine’s Once Nimble Army Is Mired in Soviet Decision-Making (Wall Street Journal):

https://www.wsj.com/world/ukraine-russia-army-soviet-5fa8e1c9?st=NTzW7V&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

AVAILABLE IN NEW LANGUAGES:

The Telegraph has launched translated versions of Ukraine: The Latest in Ukrainian and Russian, making its reporting accessible to audiences on both sides of the battle lines and across the wider region, including Central Asia and the Caucasus. Just search Україна: Останні Новини (Ukr) and Украина: Последние Новости (Ru) on your on your preferred podcast app to find them. Listen here: https://linktr.ee/ukrainethelatest

Subscribe: telegraph.co.uk/ukrainethelatest

Email: ukrainepod@telegraph.co.uk

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Russian units hunted deep within Ukraine & Europe hosts ‘critical call’ with Trump

Day 1,266.

Today, as Russian forces surge behind Ukrainian lines in the Donbas, we ask if this is just leverage for the upcoming talks in Alaska, or signs of a fundamental weakness in Ukraine’s defence. We also hear how President Zelensky’s line on ceding territory may be softening and look at how Russian propaganda is interpreting Putin’s upcoming meeting with Trump.

Contributors:

Dominic Nicholls (Associate Editor of Defence). @DomNicholls on X.

Francis Dearnley (Executive Editor for Audio). @FrancisDearnley on X.

Joe Barnes (Brussels Correspondant). @Barnes_Joe on X.

James Kilner (Former Russia Correspondant). @jkjourno on X.

Content Referenced:

Battle Lines:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/08/08/battle-lines-podcast-inside-the-rise-of-chinas-military/

Ukraine prepared to cede territory held by Russia (Joe Barnes in The Telegraph):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/08/11/ukraine-prepared-freeze-war-current-frontline-summit/ 

Britain issues warning to Merz and Macron over Ukraine (The Telegraph):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/08/12/stop-commenting-trump-putin-ukraine-peace-talks-merz-macron/ 

Children First: Trump-Putin Summit ‘Disaster’ for Ukraine’s Stolen Kids, Warns Expert (Kyiv Post):

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/57954

Putin silences Russia with sweeping internet blackouts (The Telegraph):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/08/07/putin-silences-russia-internet-blackouts/ 

North Koreans tell BBC they are being sent to work 'like slaves' in Russia (BBC):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2077gwjlvxo 

SIGN UP TO THE NEW ‘UKRAINE: THE LATEST’ WEEKLY NEWSLETTER:

https://secure.telegraph.co.uk/customer/secure/newsletter/ukraine/ 

Each week, Dom Nicholls and Francis Dearnley answer your questions, provide recommended reading, and give exclusive analysis and behind-the-scenes insights – plus maps of the frontlines and diagrams of weapons to complement our daily reporting. It’s free for everyone, including non-subscribers.

Subscribe: telegraph.co.uk/ukrainethelatest

Email: ukrainepod@telegraph.co.uk

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Exclusive: Ukraine prepared to cede territory held by Russia & 'breach' sparks alarm on eastern front

Day 609.

Today, we bring you the latest updates from Ukraine, hear the news from the EU council meeting in Brussels and interview the former Apache attack helicopter pilot who trained Prince Harry.

Contributors:

David Knowles (Host). @djknowles22 on Twitter.

Dominic Nicholls (Associate Editor, Defence). @DomNicholls on Twitter.

Francis Dearnley (Assistant Comment Editor). @FrancisDearnley on Twitter.

Joe Barnes (Brussels Correspondent). @Barnes_Joe on Twitter.

With thanks to Richard Youngs (Former Apache attack helicopter pilot and instructor in the British Army's Army Air Corps). @Richard_Youngs on Twitter. 

Articles Referenced:

'Putin is dragging the Middle East into his own failing war' by Francis Dearnley:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/10/27/putin-is-dragging-the-middle-east-into-his-own-war

Francis' appearance on 'The Eastern Front' podcast:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-war-from-the-uk-with-francis-dearnley/id1609646697?i=1000632745622 

Find out more:

Subscribe to The Telegraph: telegraph.co.uk/ukrainethelatest

Email: ukrainepod@telegraph.co.uk

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Russia ‘executing disobedient soldiers’, says White House & interview with a helicopter pilot

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