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Michael Shermer

The Michael Shermer Show is a series of long-form conversations between Dr. Michael Shermer and leading scientists, philosophers, historians, scholars, writers and thinkers about the most important issues of our time.

The Michael Shermer Show

Most of us have instinctive evidence the world is ending — balmy December days, face-to-face conversation replaced with heads-to-screens zomboidism, a world at constant war, a political system in disarray. We hear some myths and lies so frequently that they feel like truths: Civilization is humankind’s greatest accomplishment. Progress is undeniable. Count your blessings. You’re lucky to be alive here and now. Well, maybe we are and maybe we aren’t. Civilized to Deathcounters the idea that progress is inherently good, arguing that the “progress” defining our age is analogous to an advancing disease. Prehistoric life, of course, was not without serious dangers and disadvantages. Many babies died in infancy. A broken bone, infected wound, snakebite, or difficult pregnancy could be life-threatening. But ultimately, Ryan argues, were these pre-civilized dangers more murderous than modern scourges, such as car accidents, cancers, cardiovascular disease, and a technologically prolonged dying process? In Civilized to Death, Ryan makes the claim that we should start looking backwards to find our way into a better future. Ryan and Shermer also discuss:
 
 • human nature: peaceful or violent?
 • humans: spectrum or binary?
 • what hunter-gatherers were really like and why it is so hard to know
 • hunter-gatherers and…children, women, the elderly, sex, religion, politics and economics
 • how egalitarian were hunter-gatherers?
 • why hunter-gatherers don’t think of work as “work” in the way we do
 • the lottery test: if you won the lottery would you work at your job, live in your neighborhood, live your life?
 • was civilization the biggest mistake humans ever made?
 • the “Big Gods” theory of religion vs. the communal theory of religion, and
 • how we can learn from our ancestors to lead more balanced and healthier lives.
 
Christopher Ryan, Ph.D., and his work have been featured on MSNBC, Fox News, CNN, NPR, The New York Times, The Times of London, Playboy, The Washington Post, Time, Newsweek, The Atlantic, Outside, El Pais, La Vanguardia, Salon, Seed, and Big Think. A featured speaker from TED to The Festival of Dangerous Ideas at the Sydney Opera House to the Einstein Forum in Pottsdam, Germany, Ryan has consulted at various hospitals in Spain, provided expert testimony in a Canadian constitutional hearing, and appeared in well over a dozen documentary films. Ryan puts out a weekly podcast, called Tangentially Speaking, featuring conversations with interesting people, ranging from famous comics to bank robbers to drug smugglers to porn stars to authors to plasma physicists.
 
Listen to Science Salon via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play Music, Stitcher, iHeartRadio, and TuneIn.

102. Christopher Ryan — Civilized to Death: The Price of Progress

In episode 153, Michael speaks with University of Oxford research psychologist Dr. Kevin Dutton about his new book Black-and-White Thinking: The Burden of a Binary Brain in a Complex World. Shermer and Dutton discuss a wide gamut including black-and-white thinking in physics, biology, psychology, politics, economics, society; categories, stereotypes, bigotries; the dark side of black-and-white thinking: tribalism, xenophobia, and racism; abortion, gender, cults, sects, religions, mental disorders, and consciousness. Don't miss this fascinating dialogue with the author of Flipnosis and The Wisdom of Psychopaths (which won the prize for Best American Science and Nature Writing).

153. Kevin Dutton — Black-and-White Thinking: The Burden of a Binary Brain in a Complex World

Historically, Western societies were defined by stark divisions between wealth and poverty, with only a slim middle class. Today, the economic landscape has transformed, largely through political and institutional changes that have enabled wealth distribution and middle-class growth. Economist Daniel Waldenström explores this evolution, highlighting that effective social and tax policies are essential to advancing shared prosperity without undermining entrepreneurship.
 
Using rigorous research, Waldenström’s work demonstrates how wealth accumulation patterns have shifted since the 1800s, emphasizing the significant role of increased access to education, property ownership, and pensions. His insights advocate for policies that promote wealth creation across all social tiers, ensuring sustainable growth and financial security for future generations.
 
Shermer and Waldenström cover the scientific basis of economics, how personal beliefs shape economic theories, and differences between income and wealth inequality. They delve into historical wealth disparities, factors that have driven middle-class growth, and policies like the Laffer Curve and labor taxation. Waldenström also offers practical advice on fiscal policy and strategies to help poorer nations achieve wealth and stability.

Building a Wealthier, Fairer Society

Guy P. Harrison is an acclaimed author of nine thought-provoking books that encourage curiosity and critical thinking. In this engaging episode, he and Michael Shermer discuss how science fiction inspires us to think beyond the ordinary and explore the vast possibilities of human progress. From his latest work to his passion for rational dialogue, Harrison’s insights are both inspiring and accessible.
 
Shermer and Harrison tackle a diverse range of topics, including the societal value of science fiction, the flawed debates about religion and evolution, and why humanity might ultimately prevail despite existential threats like AI. They examine UFOs and the Fermi Paradox, discuss redefining atheism, and share optimism about human progress. Harrison’s engaging insights inspire curiosity and critical thinking throughout the episode.
 
Guy Harrison is an award-winning writer and author of nine books, including Think: Why You Should Question Everything, At Least Know This, 50 Reasons People Give for Believing in a God, and Good Thinking. His work has been featured in Skeptic, Reader’s Digest, The Institute of Arts and Ideas, Skeptical Inquirer, Free Inquiry, Big Think, and many other publications. Guy is a longtime essayist for Psychology Today and contributed a chapter about race and racism to The Cognitive Science of Beliefpublished by Cambridge University Press. Random House featured his book Think: Why You Should Question Everything as recommended reading for all first-year university students, and the San Diego Union-Tribunenamed At Least Know This a top-five summer read. His new book, Damn You, Entropy! 1,001 of the Greatest Science Fiction Quotes was a New Scientist magazine “Best Science Fiction Books of the Month” selection.

Rationality, Science Fiction, and Humanity’s Future

In The Suggestible Brain, cognitive psychologist Amir Raz delves into how suggestions can influence everything from wine preferences to memory and emotional reactions. As society grapples with misinformation, Raz’s research spans across cognitive psychology, sociology, and culture, emphasizing the profound impact of suggestion on both personal and collective levels. Raz’s expertise, merging magic with neuropsychology, unveils actionable insights for utilizing suggestion to enhance mental resilience and defend against manipulation.
 
Dr. Raz’s career includes roles as Canada Research Chair and Director of the Institute for Interdisciplinary Brain and Behavioral Sciences. A speaker and author, his insights on suggestion have been widely recognized by media and academic audiences. His work, grounded in extensive research and engaging storytelling, highlights the interconnectedness of suggestion with consciousness, memory, and identity.
 
Shermer and Raz discuss: the evolutionary basis of suggestibility, how brain imaging captures the power of suggestion, and the psychology behind hypnosis, meditation, and placebos. They discuss historical influences like Milgram’s obedience studies and explore suggestibility’s role in social contagions and cults. Raz also shares insights on psychedelics, neurofeedback, and using suggestion to manage conditions like ADHD, depression, and anxiety.

The Suggestible Brain

In the U.S. alone, more than $400 billion are donated to charity each year—equivalent to two percent of American GDP. This generosity is wonderful, but these gifts don’t do nearly as much good as they could. In recent years, researchers have started studying the effectiveness of different charities, just as investors study the effectiveness of different companies. These researchers ask questions like: How much money does it cost for this charity to save someone’s life? The answers are stunning. Charity experts estimate that the most effective charities are about 100 times more effective than typical charities. For example, you can do more good by donating $100 to a highly effective charity than by donating $10,000 to a typical charity.
 
Shermer and Greene discuss effective altruism, evidence-based philanthropy, and GivingMultiplier’s unique model for maximizing charitable impact. They explore moral judgment theories, from deontology to consequentialism, and delve into complex topics like donor fatigue, public vs. private solutions, abortion, capital punishment, and political polarization. Greene shares practical insights into addressing societal divides and inspiring collective action.
 
Joshua Greene is a Professor of Psychology at Harvard, where he teaches “Evolving Morality: From Primordial Soup to Superintelligent Machines,” one of the university’s most popular courses. He is also the author of Moral Tribes: Emotion, Reason, and the Gap Between Us and Them, which integrates moral philosophy, psychology, and neuroscience to explain the underlying causes of modern conflict. Josh’s latest applied research has led to novel, evidence-based strategies for reducing political animosity and inspiring thousands of people to support nonprofits addressing extreme poverty, climate change, and other pressing societal issues. His new organization is GivingMultiplier.org.

Evidence-Based Charity and Moral Psychology

William Green delves into the lives of iconic investors like Buffett, Munger, and Templeton, unraveling how their approaches extend beyond financial success. These super-investors possess unique skills such as rigorous thinking, resilience, and intuition. Through years of interviews, Green reveals how their principles can improve decision-making, manage risks, and help us thrive in uncertain environments.
 
William Green has written for top publications like Time, Forbes, and The Economist, and edited Time’s Asian and European editions. He coauthored several books, including Guy Spier’s The Education of a Value Investor. Born in London, he studied English at Oxford and earned a journalism master’s at Columbia. Now based in New York, he lives with his family. His latest book is Richer, Wiser, Happier: How the World’s Greatest Investors Win in Markets and Life.
 
Shermer and Green discuss the financial literacy of Americans, the mechanics of wealth creation, and the psychology behind investment decisions. They cover the stock market, the importance of resilience, and the relationship between money, happiness, and luck. The conversation includes wisdom from legendary investors, the power of compound interest, and practical strategies for financial independence.

How the Greatest Investors Win in Life and Markets

It’s clear states, borders, and countries constantly evolve. But how do countries form? And what does it take to start a new one?
 
In this episode, Michael interviews Erick Brimen, founder of Prospera, a project dedicated to creating Special Economic Zones that foster economic growth through free-market governance.
 
Brimen shares insights into the challenges of governance in developing nations, lessons learned from Venezuela’s economic collapse (despite the country having the world’s largest oil reserves), and successful governance models in places like Dubai (a small desert fishing and pearl diving village until the early 1970s) and Hong Kong (under British rule until 1997).

How to Start a New Country

In this episode, Kurt Gray offers a groundbreaking perspective on the moral mind, challenging the assumption that liberals and conservatives have radically different moral foundations.
 
Drawing on the latest science, he reveals that everyone’s moral judgments stem from feelings of vulnerability to harm. We all care about protecting ourselves and others, but conflict arises when we perceive harm differently. Gray explores how moral outrage is triggered when we disagree about who the “real” victim is, whether in political debates, personal conflicts, or even everyday situations.

What Are We Really Fighting Over? Understanding Outrage Through Moral Psychology

Just as surgeons once believed pain was good for their patients, some argue today that death brings meaning to life. But given humans rarely live beyond a century (while certain whales can thrive for over two hundred years) it’s hard not to see our biological limits as profoundly unfair. No wonder then that most people nearing death wish they still had more time.
 
Yet, with ever-advancing science, will the ends of our lives always loom so close?
 
Ariel Zeleznikow-Johnston is a neuroscientist at Monash University, Australia, where he investigates methods for characterizing the nature of conscious experiences. His research interests range from the decline, preservation and rescue of cognitive function at different stages of the lifespan.

What if Death Isn’t the End? The Science of Forever

In this thought-provoking conversation, Dan Barker, a former evangelical preacher turned prominent atheist and co-president of the Freedom from Religion Foundation, explains the current state of separation of Church and State, the influence of Catholicism on the Supreme Court, and the ongoing debates surrounding public education and religious symbols.
 
Barker also discusses the legal challenges tackled by his organization, and introduces “Contraduction,” a new philosophical concept that reexamines how beliefs and arguments can reverse in order and meaning.
 
Plus, the moral implications of belief systems and the fine-tuning argument for the existence of God, the nature of nothingness, and free will.
 
Dan Barker is co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, co-host of Freethought Radio, and co-founder of The Clergy Project. He worked 19 years as an evangelical minister and is a member of the Lenape (Delaware) tribe of American Indians. His new book is Contraduction.

The Current State of Atheism and Separation of Church and State

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