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The Lawfare Institute

The Lawfare Podcast features discussions with experts, policymakers, and opinion leaders at the nexus of national security, law, and policy. On issues from foreign policy, homeland security, intelligence, and cybersecurity to governance and law, we have doubled down on seriousness at a time when others are running away from it. Visit us at www.lawfareblog.com.

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The Lawfare Podcast

In this episode of Scaling Laws, Dean Ball, Senior Fellow at the Foundation for American Innovation and former Senior Policy Advisor for Artificial Intelligence and Emerging Technology, White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, and Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, to share an inside perspective of the Trump administration’s AI agenda, with a specific focus on the AI Action Plan. 

The trio also explore Dean’s thoughts on the recently released ChatGPT-5 and the ongoing geopolitical dynamics shaping America’s domestic AI policy.

Find Scaling Laws on the Lawfare website, and subscribe to never miss an episode.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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Scaling Laws: What's Next in AI Policy (and for Dean Ball)?

This week, a rejuvenated Scott returned from vacation to sit down with his Lawfare colleagues Benjamin Wittes, Daniel Byman, and Kate Klonick to talk through some of the week’s big national security news, including:

 • “Occupational Hazards.” The Israeli government led by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has stated its intent to occupy Gaza City, the last segment of Gaza not under Israeli military control, and displace its civilians to “designated safe areas.” In an apparent response to both domestic and international outrage at the plan, Netanyahu later disavowed any intent to annex Gaza—even as he acknowledged calls to do so from within his coalition—and finally laid out a rough Israeli end-goal for Gaza: namely, a non-Israeli governing entity, led by neither Hamas nor the Palestinian Authority, operating under complete Israeli security control. But will this be enough to assuage these concerns? And what does it tell us about where the Gaza conflict may be headed?
 • “The Rake.” The Trump administration has struck a deal with chip manufacturers NVIDIA and AMD, allowing them to export certain high-end (but not frontier model) chips to Chinese companies engaging in AI research, among other relevant activities, so long as they share 15% of the profits with the government. It’s a move that has both Democrats and Republicans worried about major power competition with China crying foul, and lawyers raising serious doubts as to its legal viability. What appears to be driving this recent about-face? And what does it say about the trajectory of U.S. policy on AI (and China)?
 • “The War on Drugs. But, Like, Actually.” According to the New York Times, President Trump has reportedly signed a secret order authorizing the use of military force against drug cartels his administration has designated as terrorist organizations. Exactly what sort of military action may result is not yet clear, but it already has legal and policy experts raising concerns on a number of different fronts. How big a move is this, and what actions might it yield?

In object lessons, Dan, in learning more about 18th-century rivalries, recommends the game Imperial Struggle. Ben, in cheerful outrage, revealed his plans for 100lbs of blue and yellow marking chalk. Scott, in humble apology, reveled in his new-found love of pizza beans. Kate, in cheerful anticipation, expects a weekend of reverie with 14 pounds of fruit and vegetables.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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Rational Security: The “Business Casual August” Edition

In their new book, “Command of Commerce: America’s Enduring Economic Power Advantage Over China,” Steve Brooks and Ben Vagle argue that the United States’ economic advantage over China is much larger than is commonly believed. They contend that if the United States were to cut China off from the U.S. economy and from the economies of U.S. allies, China would suffer significantly more than the United States. 

Matt Gluck, Executive Editor at Executive Functions, spoke with Brooks and Vagle about the size and nature of the gap in economic power between the two countries, the importance of U.S. alliances in maintaining economic leverage over China, why decoupling from China now would undermine this leverage, and more. 

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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Lawfare Daily: Steve Brooks and Ben Vagle on U.S.-China Economic Competition

On today’s episode, Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sits down with Seth Harp, an investigative reporter, U.S. Army Reserve veteran, and a former Assistant Attorney General for the state of Texas to discuss Harp’s new book, “The Fort Bragg Cartel: Drug Trafficking and Murder in the Special Forces.” 

They discuss Harp’s experiences reporting on the murder of two special forces operators at Fort Bragg—one of whom belonged to the secretive Delta Force unit—as well as the epidemic of PTSD, addiction, drug trafficking, violence, criminality, and impunity he uncovered across these elite U.S. military organizations in the shadow of the post-9/11 wars.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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Lawfare Daily: ‘The Fort Bragg Cartel’ with Seth Harp

In a live conversation on YouTube, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower and Roger Parloff, and Lawfare contributor Peter Harrell to discuss the D.C. Circuit vacating Judge Boasberg’s probable cause of contempt by the Trump administration, where the legal challenges to President Trump’s IEEPA tariffs stand, and the legal battle unfolding in Texas over the Democratic lawmakers leaving the state to prevent Republicans from redistricting the state.You can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here. And check out Lawfare’s new homepage on the litigation, new Bluesky account, and new WITOAD merch.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Lawfare Daily: The Trials of the Trump Administration, Aug. 8

From August 6, 2024: A new film from Al Jazeera’s Fault Lines series called “The Night Won’t End” profiles three Palestinian families as they try to survive the war in Gaza.

On today’s episode, Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien speaks to the documentary’s director, Kavitha Chekuru, along with a few of the journalists and researchers who came together to work on the project, including Emily Tripp, Director at Airwars; Samaneh Moafi, Assistant Director of Research at Forensic Architecture; and Lawrence Abu Hamdan, Founder and Director of investigations at Earshot.

They discuss the three families at the center of this story, other investigations into the killings of civilians by the Israeli military in Gaza, and the role of the United States in the war since Oct. 7.

Please note that this episode contains content that some people may find disturbing, including depictions of war and violence against children. Listener discretion is advised.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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Lawfare Archive: A New Documentary on Surviving the War in Gaza

From June 7, 2023: On January 1, 2023, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva was sworn in as president of Brazil. A week later, insurrectionists in Brazil stormed government buildings, including the president’s palace, the Supreme Federal Court, and the National Congress building to violently disrupt the democratic transition of power and challenge the results of the election. Lula, however, remained undeterred and forged ahead. 

It’s been roughly 150 days since those events, and Lawfare Legal Fellow Saraphin Dhanani sat down with Brian Winter, Editor-in-Chief of Americas Quarterly and a journalist with over a decade of experience living and reporting across Latin America, to discuss how Lula has fared in his first 100 days in office, his vision for reviving Brazil’s place in the world, and the political forces he’s up against. 

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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Lawfare Archive: How is Lula Doing?

Brian Fuller, a member of the Product Policy Team at OpenAI, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to analyze how large AI labs go about testing their models for compliance with internal requirements and various legal obligations. They also cover the ins and outs of what it means to work in product policy and what issues are front of mind for in-house policy teams amid substantial regulatory uncertainty.

Find Scaling Laws on the Lawfare website, and subscribe to never miss an episode.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Scaling Laws: What Keeps OpenAI’s Product Policy Staff Up at Night? A Conversation with Brian Fuller

Sam Bresnick, Research Fellow and Andrew W. Marshall Fellow at Georgetown’s Center for Security and Emerging Technology (CSET), joins Lawfare’s Justin Sherman to discuss his recently published report, “Big Tech in Taiwan: Beyond Semiconductors.” They discuss a previous report Sam coauthored with Georgetown CSET colleagues, “Which Ties Will Bind?,” looking at U.S. Big Tech companies’ exposure to China; Sam’s recent report on the 17 examined companies’ Taiwan entanglements; and how greenfield foreign direct investments (FDI), research and development (R&D) centers, data centers, supply chains, and more expose the studied U.S. companies to Taiwan. They also discuss how companies think about the geopolitical and security threat space, perspectives on “derisking” versus “decoupling” from Taiwan or China, and how U.S. policymakers could better track, identify, and potentially mitigate the risks.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Lawfare Daily: ‘Big Tech in Taiwan’ with Sam Bresnick

Lawfare Legal Fellow Mykhailo Soldatenko sits down with Oona Hathaway, Yale Law Professor and President-elect of the American Society of International Law, to discuss how the current world events are harming the norm prohibiting the use of force in international relations, why that's troubling, and what to do about it. They chat about the current U.S. administration's policies, recent strikes on Iran, and the implications for the norm from a potential negotiated settlement in the Russia-Ukraine war. 

You may want to look at the following pieces relevant to the discussion: 

 • “
Might Unmakes Right: The Catastrophic Collapse of Norms Against the Use of Force • ,” by Oona A. Hathaway and Scott J. Shapiro
 • “
There’s Still No Reason to Think the Kellogg-Briand Pact Accomplished Anything • ,” by Stephen M. Walt
 • “
Trump's Strikes on Iran Were Unlawful. Here's Why That Matters • ,” by Oona A. Hathaway

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lawfare Daily: Oona Hathaway on the Collapse of Norms Against the Use of Force

Dakota Cary, Strategic Advisory Consultant at SentinelOne, joins Lawfare Senior Editor Eugenia Lostri, to discuss his article on U.S. attempts to deter Chinese hacking group Volt Typhoon. They talk about why Volt Typhoon won’t stop its intrusions against critical infrastructure, whether other hacking groups can be deterred, and where we should focus our attention to counter malicious activity.

Materials discussed during the episode:

 • "
Exploring Chinese Thinking on Deterrence in the Not-So-New Space and Cyber Domains • ," by Nathan Beauchamp-Mustafaga
Final Report of the Defense Science Board (DSB) Task Force on Cyber Deterrence • , February 2017
 • The Atlantic Council report, "
Adapting US strategy to account for China’s transformation into a peer nuclear power • ," by David O. Shullman, John K. Culver, Kitsch Liao, and Samantha Wong

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/c/trumptrials.

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Lawfare Daily: Can Chinese Cyber Operations Be Deterred, with Dakota Cary

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