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The Lawfare Institute

The Lawfare Podcast features discussions with experts, policymakers, and opinion leaders at the nexus of national security, law, and policy. On issues from foreign policy, homeland security, intelligence, and cybersecurity to governance and law, we have doubled down on seriousness at a time when others are running away from it. Visit us at www.lawfaremedia.org.

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The Lawfare Podcast

This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Molly Roberts, Roger Parloff, and Tyler McBrien to talk through the week’s big national security news stories, including:

 • “Jim Spells Seashells By the Seashore.” Former FBI Director James Comey was indicted again this past week, this time for allegedly threatening the life of the president by spelling “8647” in shells at the beach and posting an image on social media. It is a ludicrous argument. So what does it tell us that Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche was willing to file it? And where does Trump’s broader vengeance campaign seem likely to go from here, under whoever becomes the next Attorney General?
 • “We Were on a Break!” The Iran War turned 60 days old last week—the deadline by which, under the War Powers Resolution, the president is supposed to wrap up any congressionally unauthorized military operations. But like many of its predecessors, the Trump administration has done no such thing. Instead, it’s argued that the 60-day cut-off was already met by the ongoing ceasefire—even though the Trump administration has continued its embargo of Iranian oil resources and began a new major maritime campaign to open the Strait of Hormuz, triggering exchanges of fire with Iranian forces. What should we make of these arguments? And do they suggest the War Powers Resolution is a dead letter?
 • “Strictly Ballroom.” The Trump administration is actively working to capitalize on the recent assassination attempt on Trump to push a federal court to allow its construction of an East Wing ballroom on national security grounds. At the same time, it’s faced new judicial headwinds in its quixotic effort to take over a municipal golf course—the same location where it dumped the (potentially toxic) rubble of the demolished old East Wing. What do these cases tell us about Trump’s efforts to reshape our nation’s capital? And how legitimate are the new efforts to tie these cases to national security?

In object lessons, Roger is revisiting Azar Nafisi’s “Reading Lolita in Tehran,” a tough, yet beautiful read with unfortunate persistent relevance. Molly is memorializing the current metro landscape with her desk globe of Washington, D.C. Scott is sharing his remembrance of Stewart Baker, forever a friend of Lawfare. And Tyler is taking us back to 1971 Boston and Catholic resistance to the Vietnam War with the Divine Intervention podcast.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Rational Security: The “I’ve Never Done THAT Before!” Edition

On today’s podcast, Lawfare Associate Editor for Communications Anna Hickey talks to Nicholas Enrich, former acting assistant administrator of Global Health at USAID, about his book, “Into the Wood Chipper: A Whistleblower's Account of How the Trump Administration Shredded USAID.” Enrich details the agency's dismantling during the early months of the Trump administration and whether those doing the dismantling understood the consequences of their actions. He also discusses the impact on global health programs, the role of political appointees and DOGE, and the consequences for international aid and U.S. global health security.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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Lawfare Daily: An Insider’s Account of the Trump Administration’s Dismantling of USAID

Patrick Radden Keefe, a staff writer at the New Yorker and the author of “Say Nothing” and “Empire of Pain,” sits down with Lawfare Associate Editor Peter Beck to discuss his most recent book, “London Falling.” The two talk about Radden Keefe’s investigation of a London teenager’s fatal plunge into the Thames, the United Kingdom’s acquiescence to foreign influence, and his process in writing about the book.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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Lawfare Daily: Patrick Radden Keefe on ‘London Falling’

Lawfare Senior Editor Kate Klonick speaks with former Deputy Solicitor General Michael Dreeben; lecturer in law at Stanford, Richard Salgado; and attorney Adam Unikowsky, to discuss the geofencing Fourth Amendment case that was heard Monday, April 27 in the Supreme Court, Chatrie v. United States.

They discuss the background of the case with their unique perspectives, starting with Unikowsky's framing of the case for his client, Chatrie, and his thoughts on the arguments he made in his defense when he argued the case before the Court on Monday. Salgado, who worked for Google for years answering such warrants and co-authored the technologist amicus brief, discusses how the Court seemed to be handling the sophistication of the technology issues. Dreeben, who argued Carpenter, the Fourth Amendment technology case seen as the precursor to Chatrie, frames up the stakes of the Fourth Amendment issues. They debate the values of various technology metaphors, the long term future of the third party doctrine, and what the Justices seem most concerned with coming out of the arguments on Monday. 

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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Lawfare Daily: Chatting on Chatrie with Adam Unikowsky, Michael Dreeben, and Richard Salgado

In a live conversation on YouTube, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Molly Roberts, and Roger Parloff and Lawfare Contributing Editor Nicholas Bednar to discuss the second indictment of former FBI Director James Comey, a judge finding that he has jurisdiction over Maureen Comey’s litigation challenging the Justice Department’s firing of her last her, oral argument at the Supreme Court over the cancellation of TPS, and more.

You can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here. And check out Lawfare’s new homepage on the litigation, new Bluesky account, and new WITOAD merch.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Lawfare Daily: The Trials of the Trump Administration, May 1

From June 9, 2017: As the dust settles following former FBI Director James Comey’s testimony before the Senate Intelligence Committee, the Lawfare Podcast brings you expert views on what exactly happened yesterday and what it means for the Trump administration going forward. Benjamin Wittes sat down with Carrie Cordero, a former attorney at the National Security Division of the Justice Department, and Paul Rosenzweig, who worked for Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr, for a conversation on the Comey testimony and its implications.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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Lawfare Archive: Carrie Cordero and Paul Rosenzweig Weigh in on Comey

From June 26, 2024: On June 10, the jury reached a verdict in the federal trial against Chiquita Banana. It found that the company had financed a paramilitary group in Colombia in the late 1990s and early 2000s, resulting in the deaths of eight men, and it awarded the victims' families $38 million in damages. It's the culmination of a 17-year-long multi-district litigation that had faced significant procedural, evidentiary, and legal challenges. And it may represent a new frontier in the fight to hold corporations legally accountable for human rights violations.

Executive Editor Natalie Orpett discussed the case and its implications with Michael Posner, Director of the Center for Business and Human Rights at New York University’s Stern School of Business and a former Assistant Secretary of State for the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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Lawfare Archive: Bananas and Corporate Accountability for Human Rights

In this episode of Scaling Laws, we explore how the "black box" of global greenhouse gas emissions is being cracked open by artificial intelligence and satellite imagery. Kevin Frazier is joined by Gavin McCormick, who leads Watt Time and ClimateTrace, a global coalition that has revolutionized the process of identifying and quantifying emissions. For decades, climate policy has relied on self-reported data from nations and corporations—a system prone to gaps and "greenwashing." McCormick’s work leverages machine learning to monitor every major source of emissions on Earth in near real-time. They discuss the legal implications of "radical transparency," how AI-driven data can be used to enforce regulations and measure claims, and the myths and facts of AI’s environmental consequences.

Find Scaling Laws on the Lawfare website, and subscribe to never miss an episode.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Scaling Laws: Identifying the Myths and Facts of AI's Environmental Impact with Gavin McCormick

This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Executive Editor Natalie Orpett and Contributing Editors Ariane Tabatabai and Joel Braunold, to talk through the week’s big national security news stories, including:

 • “The Art of the Heel.” As it approaches the 60-day mark, the war of Iran appears to have entered the “war of attrition” stage. The Strait of Hormuz remains closed by both Iran and the United States, as each side waits to see if the other will capitulate first. President Trump recently called off peace talks in Islamabad, in part because of purported internal disarray on the part of Iran—a perhaps unsurprising consequence of a two-month campaign of regime change. Meanwhile, the White House appears to have successfully pushed for and and then extended a ceasefire in the related theater of Lebanon, but it is already under strain from ongoing Israeli strikes and Hezbollah’s ensuing refusal to disarm. What should we make of this new equilibrium? And does it suggest that there is any way out of the current morass in the near future?
 • “Royally Falked.” King Charles is in the United States this week for the first state visit by a British monarch since Queen Elizabeth in 2007. But the Trump administration’s latest round of antics toward the United Kingdom and other NATO allies may overshadow the trip. Over the weekend, Reuters reported that an internal Pentagon email suggested that the administration should explore withdrawing U.S. recognition of British control over the Falkland Islands and suspending Spain from NATO due to their refusal to join U.S.-Israeli combat operations against Iran. Other consequences may yet be in the offing. How seriously should we take these threats from the Pentagon? And how close are we to a permanent rupture in the United States’s preeminent alliance?
 • “Ballroom Blitz.” On Saturday night, President Trump was the target of a third assassination attempt since the 2024 campaign. This time, a California teacher plotted to target Trump and his senior advisers at the annual White House Correspondents’ Association Dinner. In response, the administration quickly blamed Democrats for the heated, sometimes violent rhetoric they use in criticizing Trump and focused its attention on pressuring a federal court to end a civil case challenging the construction of the new White House ballroom, citing security concerns. What were some of our thoughts about this past weekend’s events?

In object lessons, Ari is taking control of the narrative with Split Fiction for the Switch 2. Natalie is taking herself out for a treat to Boulangerie Saint Georges near Eastern Market. Scott is taking a break from his own podcast to appreciate Iran: The Latest from The Telegraph. And Joel is taking a lesson from the NFL draft that may delight both sportsball and non-sportsball fans alike.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Rational Security: The “Tavern Style” Edition

Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sits down with Chinmayi Sharma, an associate professor at Fordham Law School and a contributing editor at Lawfare, to discuss Sharma’s forthcoming law review article, “Immigration Enforcement Intermediaries.”

They discuss the U.S. federal government’s increasingly privatized and automated system of immigration enforcement—which Sharma describes as “a code-based Leviathan—cloaked in the veneer of legal legitimacy yet operating outside traditional democratic channels”—and how private technology vendors entrench their positions within that system. Sharma also walks through a number of proposals for states and other sub-federal entities to counteract these harms to immigrants, society, and the rule of law itself.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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Lawfare Daily: The Dangers of Privatized, Automated Immigration Enforcement

From July 17, 2020: Darrell West and John Allen are the authors of the book, "Turning Point: Policymaking in the Era of Artificial Intelligence," a broad look at the impact that artificial intelligence systems are likely to have on everything from the military, to health care, to vehicles and transportation, and to international great power competition. They spoke with Benjamin Wittes about the book and the question of how we should govern AI systems. What makes for ethical uses of AI? What makes it scary? What are the anxieties that people have about artificial intelligence, and to what extent are the fears legitimate?

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/c/trumptrials.

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Lawfare Archive: John Allen and Darrell West on Artificial Intelligence

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