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The Lawfare Institute

The Lawfare Podcast features discussions with experts, policymakers, and opinion leaders at the nexus of national security, law, and policy. On issues from foreign policy, homeland security, intelligence, and cybersecurity to governance and law, we have doubled down on seriousness at a time when others are running away from it. Visit us at www.lawfaremedia.org.

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The Lawfare Podcast

Andy Grotto, William J. Perry International Security Fellow and the founder and co-director of the Program on Geopolitics, Technology, and Governance at Stanford University’s Center for International Security and Cooperation (CISAC), and Jim Dempsey, a senior policy adviser to that program and a Lecturer at the UC Berkeley Law School, join Lawfare’s Justin Sherman to discuss their recent study on the U.S. military’s domestic operational technology (OT) cybersecurity vulnerabilities, domestic installations’ dependencies on critical infrastructure both “inside the fence” and “outside the fence,” and how U.S. adversaries could exploit the flaws. They also discuss the myth of the air gap; the Pentagon's Energy Resilience Program; the role that standards, regulations, and procurement could play in strengthening the cybersecurity of OT systems on which the military depends; and what the threat landscape will look like in the coming years.

Resources:

 • James X. Dempsey and Andrew J. Grotto, “
Ensuring the Cyber Resilience of Critical Infrastructure Serving Domestic Military Installations: Questions for Senior Leadership • ,” 
The Cyber Defense Review • 10, no. 2 (2025): 115-138
 • Jim Dempsey and Andrew J. Grotto, “
The Pentagon’s Operational Technology Problem • ,” 
Lawfare • , December 15, 2025

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Lawfare Daily: The Military’s Operational Technology Cyber Vulnerabilities

In a live conversation on YouTube, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Roger Parloff, and Eric Columbus and Lawfare Associate Editor Olivia Manes to discuss discussed the FBI searching the home of a Washington Post reporter, the Supreme Court oral arguments in President Trump’s attempt to fire Lisa Cook from the Federal Reserve, the criminal inquiries into Minnesota state officials and protestors, and more.

You can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here. And check out Lawfare’s new homepage on the litigation, new Bluesky account, and new WITOAD merch.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lawfare Daily: The Trials of the Trump Administration, Jan. 23

From December 6, 2024: For today’s podcast, Lawfare General Counsel and Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Joel Braunold, Managing Director of the S. Daniel Abraham Center for Middle East Peace, for the latest in their series of podcast conversations on aspects of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This time, they focused on what might be one of the most consequential developments in recent memory: Donald Trump’s return to the White House.

They discussed who seems likely to steer policy toward the conflict in the incoming Trump administration, how the approach may differ from Trump’s last stint in the White House, and what it all may mean for Gaza, the West Bank, and the broader region.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Lawfare Archive: Joel Braunold on What Donald Trump's Return Might Mean for the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

From January 15, 2025: In a live conversation on January 14, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Senior Editor Anna Bower about the confirmation hearing of Pete Hegseth by the Senate Armed Services Committee on his expected nomination to be secretary of defense, the first confirmation hearing for one of President-elect Trump’s cabinet nominations in his second term.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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Lawfare Archive: Anna Bower on the Confirmation Hearing of Pete Hegseth

Jakub Kraus, a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, speaks with Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law, a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, about Anthropic's newly released "constitution" for its AI model, Claude.

The conversation covers the lengthy document's principles and underlying philosophical views, what these reveal about Anthropic's approach to AI development, how market forces are shaping the AI industry, and the weighty question of whether an AI model might ever be a conscious or morally relevant being.

Mentioned in this episode:

 • Kevin Frazier, "
Interpreting Claude's Constitution • ,
" Lawfar • e
 • Alan Rozenshtein, "
The Moral Education of an Alien Mind • ,
" Lawfar • e

Find Scaling Laws on the Lawfare website, and subscribe to never miss an episode.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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Scaling Laws: Rapid Response to the Implications of Claude's New Constitution

This week, Scott sat down with co-host emeritus Shane Harris and Lawfare colleagues Anna Bower and Loren Voss to talk through yet another big week in national security, including:

 • “Minnesota N(ICE).” Amidst ongoing tensions over the Trump administration’s hyper aggressive immigration enforcement tactics in Minnesota, the Justice Department has issued subpoenas to at least five state Democratic officials—including Governor Tim Walz—investigating alleged efforts to obstruct or not cooperate with federal efforts. Some say it’s an intimidation tactic; to others, it seems to be laying the foundation for an invocation of the Insurrection Act. What should we make of these most recent developments in Minnesota?
 • “Fed Up.” Last week, Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell announced in a video that the Federal Reserve had received subpoenas from the Department of Justice as part of a criminal inquiry into his congressional testimony regarding cost overruns in the ongoing renovation of the Federal Reserve’s headquarters. Powell called out the probe as an effort to undermine the Fed’s independence, and both markets and members of Congress have had a negative response. And the Supreme Court may follow, as it’s set to hear oral arguments in the related case of Federal Reserve board member Lisa Cook, whom Trump had previously sought to fire “for cause” on the basis of similarly unproven criminal allegations. Why did the Trump administration take this step when it did? And how might it affect the outcome of the Cook case?
 • “The Sound and the Fury.” Recent media reports have revealed that the Department of Defense has spent at least a year testing a device that may have been the source of a mysterious illness that has affected U.S. diplomats and personnel stationed around the world since 2016. This revelation has inevitably called into question past intelligence community assessments that such symptoms were unlikely to be the result of actions by a hostile adversary and resurrected controversies around how affected U.S. personnel have been treated. What should we now make of the so-called Havana Syndrome? And how might these new revelations affect U.S. foreign relations?

In object lessons, Anna is channeling her inner British spy with a recommendation of season 2 of The Night Manager. Loren is channeling some inner peace with a recommendation of the Snoo. Scott is changing the channel to the bizarre French animated comedy Grizzy & the Lemmings. And Shane is considering a style change a la Ted Danson in A Man on the Inside.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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Rational Security: The “Just Chilling in My Padded Room” Edition

Senior Editor Anna Bower spoke with Carolyn Shapiro, co-director of Chicago-Kent College of Law's Institute on the Supreme Court, and Bryna Godar, a Staff Attorney with the State Democracy Research Initiative at the University of Wisconsin Law School. The discussion covered the state of Minnesota’s jurisdiction to criminally investigate Jonathan Ross, the ICE official who reportedly shot and killed Renee Nicole Good on Jan. 7. The conversation also covered obstacles state prosecutors might face in pursuing a potential prosecution and the likelihood that Ross could raise what’s known as “Supremacy Clause immunity."

Bryna Godar’s article on the subject for Slate can be found here. Carolyn Shapiro’s Lawfare piece is available here.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Lawfare Daily: Can Minnesota Prosecute ICE Agent Jonathan Ross?

On today's episode, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sits down with Joel Braunold, the managing director of The Center Project and a Lawfare contributing editor, to talk over the Trump administration's recently released plans for the Board of Peace tasked with implementing its peace plan for Gaza.

Together, they discuss the details of the plan, how it intersects with the Trump administration's twenty-point peace plan, the state of international relations surrounding the ceasefire in Gaza, and what it can all tell us about what might come next. 

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lawfare Daily: Trump's Board of Peace and What's Next for Gaza, with Joel Braunold

Lawfare Senior Editor Molly Roberts joins Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes to discuss her new article on the so-called “grand conspiracy” investigation, which is now the subject of a grand jury probe in Florida. The “grand conspiracy” posits that a single conspiracy to foil President Trump’s electoral prospects binds together the Russia investigation from 2016, the Mar-a-Lago search, and the Jan. 6 and classified documents prosecutions during the Biden administration.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lawfare Daily: Grand Conspiracy with Molly Roberts

In a live conversation on YouTube, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Roger Parloff, Michael Feinberg and Molly Roberts to discuss the investigation of Federal Reserve chair Jerome Powell, Senator Mark Kelly’s suit against the Department of Defense, Illinois and Minnesota’s lawsuits against the Department of Homeland Security over an increase in deployment of federal immigration enforcement agents, and more.

You can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here. And check out Lawfare’s new homepage on the litigation, new Bluesky account, and new WITOAD merch.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lawfare Daily: The Trials of the Trump Administration, Jan. 16

From May 27, 2017: Amidst the hurricane of news coming out of the White House in recent weeks, one question has surfaced again and again: why isn't White House Counsel Don McGahn stopping Donald Trump from doing all this? This week on the podcast, Benjamin Wittes sat down with Bob Bauer, former White House Counsel for Barack Obama, to talk about the Office of the White House Counsel and how President Trump can and can't be restrained.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lawfare Archive: Bob Bauer on Trump and the White House Counsel

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