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The Lawfare Institute

The Lawfare Podcast features discussions with experts, policymakers, and opinion leaders at the nexus of national security, law, and policy. On issues from foreign policy, homeland security, intelligence, and cybersecurity to governance and law, we have doubled down on seriousness at a time when others are running away from it. Visit us at www.lawfaremedia.org.

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The Lawfare Podcast

This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Alan Rozenshtein, Eric Columbus, and Molly Roberts for a deep dive into two of the week’s big national security news stories:

 • “Slipping Down the Slope.” Last week’s killing of 37-year-old ICU nurse Alex Pretti by Border Patrol agents in Minneapolis, Minnesota, has triggered what increasingly appears to be a national backlash against the Trump administration’s immigration policies and ICE’s violent tactics. Republicans and Democrats alike have been increasingly public in their criticism of the administration’s actions—and, in particular, DHS Secretary Kristi Noem—while state officials have begun exploring more legal avenues for pushing back against federal officials. The Trump administration, meanwhile, may be shifting tack, as it has replaced Border Patrol commander-at-large Greg Bovino with immigration czar Tom Homan on the ground in Minneapolis and adopted a more conciliatory tone. Is this a real turning point for the Trump administration’s flagship policy? Or more of a feint?
 • “Now We’re Just Waiting on Artificial Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and Charisma.” Last week, the artificial intelligence company Anthropic released what it’s calling a “constitution” for its premier AI model, Claude. The constitution seeks to instill a moral framework, value system, and even a personality in the AI model, taking an unprecedented step in both private AI governance and AI personhood. How does Claude’s constitution factor into broader discussions about AI development and regulating how models should interact with users?

In object lessons, Eric sticks to classic Rational Security orthodoxy by recommending an actual, physical object: his wife’s beloved migraine-slaying device, The Tingler. Alan flagrantly violates the show’s informal norms with a repeat recommendation—season 2 of The Night Manager (plus some unsolicited fawning over Tom Hiddleston). Scott, desperate for warmth, throws the rulebook into the fire with a double object lesson: 1) Metro’s Fire Snake to satisfy your basic human need for fire, and 2) long underwear to satisfy your base-layer needs. And Molly restores order with a hat that truly captures how we’re all feeling: America is in trouble, and we’re tired.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Rational Security: The “Pawing at Scott” Edition

The crisis over President Trump's threats to annex Greenland appears to be over for now. But the second- and third-order consequences continue to unfold as NATO allies try to manage their relationship with the United States. In this episode, Lawfare Senior Editor Molly Roberts, Lawfare Public Service Fellow Ariane Tabatabai, and Egmont Institute Visiting Fellow John Drennan give an overview of the crisis and discuss its implications for the United States and NATO, as well as talk though how U.S. adversaries like Russia and China see the family feud.

For more on these topics, see:

 • “
Western Europeans Are Hedging on a Post-U.S. NATO • ,” by Lucas Robinson, 
Lawfare • (June 24,2025)
 • “
Russia and China in the Gray Zone • ,” by Ariane Tabatabai, 
Lawfare • (November 14, 2025)
 • “
America Needs a New Nuclear Nonproliferation Toolkit • ,” by Ariane Tabatabai, 
Lawfare • (January 21, 2026)

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Lawfare Daily: Trump, Greenland, and the International Order

Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sits down with Princeton PhD candidate Elizabeth Tsurkov to talk about the 903 days that she was held in captivity by Kata'ib Hezbollah, an Iranian-backed militia in Iraq. Tsurkov describes the circumstances of her detention, the realities of life in captivity, and the sociological study she undertook of her captors while imprisoned. Wittes and Tsurkov also explore changes in U.S. hostage policy under the Biden and Trump administrations, as well as how various governments responded to efforts to secure her release. 

For more on Elizabeth’s powerful story, see:

 • “
Held Hostage by Iran’s Militias: Where Are They Now? • ,” a talk by Elizabeth Tsurkov, moderated by Charles Lister and Benjamin Wittes, hosted by the Middle East Institute (January 21, 2026)
 • “
Lawfare Daily: One Year Since the Kidnapping of Elizabeth Tsurkov • ,” Ben’s conversation with Emma Tsurkov about her efforts to seek her sister’s release (March 25, 2024)

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Lawfare Daily: Elizabeth Tsurkov on Her Captivity in Iraq

Andy Grotto, William J. Perry International Security Fellow and the founder and co-director of the Program on Geopolitics, Technology, and Governance at Stanford University’s Center for International Security and Cooperation (CISAC), and Jim Dempsey, a senior policy adviser to that program and a Lecturer at the UC Berkeley Law School, join Lawfare’s Justin Sherman to discuss their recent study on the U.S. military’s domestic operational technology (OT) cybersecurity vulnerabilities, domestic installations’ dependencies on critical infrastructure both “inside the fence” and “outside the fence,” and how U.S. adversaries could exploit the flaws. They also discuss the myth of the air gap; the Pentagon's Energy Resilience Program; the role that standards, regulations, and procurement could play in strengthening the cybersecurity of OT systems on which the military depends; and what the threat landscape will look like in the coming years.

Resources:

 • James X. Dempsey and Andrew J. Grotto, “
Ensuring the Cyber Resilience of Critical Infrastructure Serving Domestic Military Installations: Questions for Senior Leadership • ,” 
The Cyber Defense Review • 10, no. 2 (2025): 115-138
 • Jim Dempsey and Andrew J. Grotto, “
The Pentagon’s Operational Technology Problem • ,” 
Lawfare • , December 15, 2025

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Lawfare Daily: The Military’s Operational Technology Cyber Vulnerabilities

In a live conversation on YouTube, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Roger Parloff, and Eric Columbus and Lawfare Associate Editor Olivia Manes to discuss discussed the FBI searching the home of a Washington Post reporter, the Supreme Court oral arguments in President Trump’s attempt to fire Lisa Cook from the Federal Reserve, the criminal inquiries into Minnesota state officials and protestors, and more.

You can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here. And check out Lawfare’s new homepage on the litigation, new Bluesky account, and new WITOAD merch.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Lawfare Daily: The Trials of the Trump Administration, Jan. 23

From December 6, 2024: For today’s podcast, Lawfare General Counsel and Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Joel Braunold, Managing Director of the S. Daniel Abraham Center for Middle East Peace, for the latest in their series of podcast conversations on aspects of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This time, they focused on what might be one of the most consequential developments in recent memory: Donald Trump’s return to the White House.

They discussed who seems likely to steer policy toward the conflict in the incoming Trump administration, how the approach may differ from Trump’s last stint in the White House, and what it all may mean for Gaza, the West Bank, and the broader region.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Lawfare Archive: Joel Braunold on What Donald Trump's Return Might Mean for the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

From January 15, 2025: In a live conversation on January 14, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Senior Editor Anna Bower about the confirmation hearing of Pete Hegseth by the Senate Armed Services Committee on his expected nomination to be secretary of defense, the first confirmation hearing for one of President-elect Trump’s cabinet nominations in his second term.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Lawfare Archive: Anna Bower on the Confirmation Hearing of Pete Hegseth

Jakub Kraus, a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, speaks with Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law, a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, about Anthropic's newly released "constitution" for its AI model, Claude.

The conversation covers the lengthy document's principles and underlying philosophical views, what these reveal about Anthropic's approach to AI development, how market forces are shaping the AI industry, and the weighty question of whether an AI model might ever be a conscious or morally relevant being.

Mentioned in this episode:

 • Kevin Frazier, "
Interpreting Claude's Constitution • ,
" Lawfar • e
 • Alan Rozenshtein, "
The Moral Education of an Alien Mind • ,
" Lawfar • e

Find Scaling Laws on the Lawfare website, and subscribe to never miss an episode.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Scaling Laws: Rapid Response to the Implications of Claude's New Constitution

This week, Scott sat down with co-host emeritus Shane Harris and Lawfare colleagues Anna Bower and Loren Voss to talk through yet another big week in national security, including:

 • “Minnesota N(ICE).” Amidst ongoing tensions over the Trump administration’s hyper aggressive immigration enforcement tactics in Minnesota, the Justice Department has issued subpoenas to at least five state Democratic officials—including Governor Tim Walz—investigating alleged efforts to obstruct or not cooperate with federal efforts. Some say it’s an intimidation tactic; to others, it seems to be laying the foundation for an invocation of the Insurrection Act. What should we make of these most recent developments in Minnesota?
 • “Fed Up.” Last week, Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell announced in a video that the Federal Reserve had received subpoenas from the Department of Justice as part of a criminal inquiry into his congressional testimony regarding cost overruns in the ongoing renovation of the Federal Reserve’s headquarters. Powell called out the probe as an effort to undermine the Fed’s independence, and both markets and members of Congress have had a negative response. And the Supreme Court may follow, as it’s set to hear oral arguments in the related case of Federal Reserve board member Lisa Cook, whom Trump had previously sought to fire “for cause” on the basis of similarly unproven criminal allegations. Why did the Trump administration take this step when it did? And how might it affect the outcome of the Cook case?
 • “The Sound and the Fury.” Recent media reports have revealed that the Department of Defense has spent at least a year testing a device that may have been the source of a mysterious illness that has affected U.S. diplomats and personnel stationed around the world since 2016. This revelation has inevitably called into question past intelligence community assessments that such symptoms were unlikely to be the result of actions by a hostile adversary and resurrected controversies around how affected U.S. personnel have been treated. What should we now make of the so-called Havana Syndrome? And how might these new revelations affect U.S. foreign relations?

In object lessons, Anna is channeling her inner British spy with a recommendation of season 2 of The Night Manager. Loren is channeling some inner peace with a recommendation of the Snoo. Scott is changing the channel to the bizarre French animated comedy Grizzy & the Lemmings. And Shane is considering a style change a la Ted Danson in A Man on the Inside.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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Rational Security: The “Just Chilling in My Padded Room” Edition

Senior Editor Anna Bower spoke with Carolyn Shapiro, co-director of Chicago-Kent College of Law's Institute on the Supreme Court, and Bryna Godar, a Staff Attorney with the State Democracy Research Initiative at the University of Wisconsin Law School. The discussion covered the state of Minnesota’s jurisdiction to criminally investigate Jonathan Ross, the ICE official who reportedly shot and killed Renee Nicole Good on Jan. 7. The conversation also covered obstacles state prosecutors might face in pursuing a potential prosecution and the likelihood that Ross could raise what’s known as “Supremacy Clause immunity."

Bryna Godar’s article on the subject for Slate can be found here. Carolyn Shapiro’s Lawfare piece is available here.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Lawfare Daily: Can Minnesota Prosecute ICE Agent Jonathan Ross?

From February 11, 2020: Afshon Ostovar is the associate chair for research and an assistant professor of national security affairs at the Naval Postgraduate School. He is also the author of "Vanguard of the Imam: Religion, Politics, and Iran's Revolutionary Guards." The IRGC has been in the news of late because of the killing of the head of the Quds Force of the Revolutionary Guard Corps, Qassem Soleimani. Benjamin Wittes spoke with Ostovar about the fallout from the Soleimani killing, how it is all playing in Iran, and why things are so quiet. They talked about whether people made a mountain out of a molehill at the time the killing happened, or whether the blowback just hasn't happened yet.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

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Lawfare Archive: Afshon Ostovar on Iran's Revolutionary Guard

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