For more than a decade, the dominant Western narrative about Chinese lending to African countries has focused on the purported "debt trap." But the data tells a very different story. David McNair, executive director of Global Policy at ONE.org, joins Eric & Cobus to discuss a new report on African debt that challenges many popular assumptions. While African countries owe $708 billion in total external debt, only about 11.5% is owed to China. Meanwhile, private bondholders hold the largest share, often at significantly higher interest rates. More importantly, China has shifted from being a major lender to becoming a major debt collector, as loans from the Belt and Road that surged a decade ago now come due. 📌 Topics Covered in this Episode: • The scale of Africa's $708 billion external debt and China's 11.5% share • The $52 billion "Great Reversal" — from Chinese lending to debt collection • Why private bondholders now dominate Africa's debt landscape • Interest rate comparisons: Chinese loans vs. Eurobonds • The rise of multilateral development banks and expanded lending headroom • The failures and design flaws of the G20 Common Framework • 7. Credit rating agencies, risk perception, and Africa's borrowing costs Show Notes: Development Finance Observatory: • T he Great Reversal ONE Data: • African Debt Bloomberg: • China's Retreat From Africa Lending Turns It Into Debt Collector by Matthew Hill Join the Discussion: X: @ChinaGSProject | @eric_olander | @standenesque Facebook: www.facebook.com/ChinaAfricaProject YouTube: www.youtube.com/@ChinaGlobalSouth Now on Bluesky! Follow CGSP at @chinagsproject.bsky.social Follow CGSP in French and Spanish: • French: www.projetafriquechine.com • | @AfrikChine • Spanish: www.chinalasamericas.com • | @ChinaAmericas Join us on Patreon! Become a CGSP Patreon member and get all sorts of cool stuff, including our Week in Review report, an invitation to join monthly Zoom calls with Eric & Cobus, and even an awesome new CGSP Podcast mug! www.patreon.com/chinaglobalsouth