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Blue Lake Capital

Welcome to Season 7 of REady2Scale, the go-to podcast for real estate investors, with a special emphasis on multifamily investing. In this podcast, we explore the dynamic landscape of various investment strategies, from real estate to farmland and more, offering you insights, strategies, and stories to enhance your agility and foresight in the market.
Each episode is designed to empower you, whether you're a seasoned investor or just starting out. From analyzing market shifts to uncovering investment opportunities, and from risk management to portfolio diversification, we cover a spectrum of topics that resonate with anyone keen on building wealth through smart investing. Tune in to transform your approach to investing and start moving with the market, not against it.
REady2Scale is sponsored by Blue Lake Capital. To learn more and join us in our multifamily investments, visit: www.bluelake-capital.com.

REady2Scale - Real Estate Investing

Are you looking to take control of your retirement savings and maximize your investment potential? Choosing the right IRA provider is a critical step in building wealth for the future. In this episode, Jeannette Friedrich, Director of Investor Relations at Blue Lake Capital, shares valuable insights into the key features and benefits of top IRA providers, based on data from seasoned investors.

Key Takeaways:

- Understanding IRAs: Learn the differences between traditional and Roth IRAs, their tax advantages, and how they complement or replace a 401(k).

- What Investors Value Most: Discover the features that matter most when selecting an IRA provider, including customer service, investment flexibility, compliance expertise, and educational resources.

- Actionable Insights: Gain clarity on how to evaluate IRA providers based on your financial goals, investment preferences, and long-term wealth-building strategy.

This episode offers a roadmap to help you confidently navigate the world of IRA providers, ensuring you make an informed decision to secure your financial future. Listen now to take the next step toward optimizing your retirement plan!

Are you REady2Scale Your Multifamily Investments? 

Learn more about growing your wealth, strengthening your portfolio, and scaling to the next level at www.bluelake-capital.com.

To reach Ellie & the Blue Lake team, email them at info@bluelake-capital.com or complete our investor form at www.bluelake-capital.com/new-investor-form and they'll connect with you.

Timestamps
00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview
00:59 Understanding IRAs: Basics and Benefits
01:50 Types of IRAs: Traditional vs. Roth
02:37 Top 7 Trusted IRA Providers
05:57 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Credits 
Producer: Blue Lake Capital
Strategist: Syed Mahmood
Editor: Emma Walker
Opening music: Pomplamoose

#investing
#IRA
#401k

*𝘉𝘭𝘶𝘦 𝘓𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘊𝘢𝘱𝘪𝘵𝘢𝘭 𝘪𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘮𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘰𝘱𝘱𝘰𝘳𝘵𝘶𝘯𝘪𝘵𝘪𝘦𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘰𝘱𝘦𝘯 𝘵𝘰 𝘢𝘤𝘤𝘳𝘦𝘥𝘪𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘪𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘰𝘳𝘴 𝘰𝘯𝘭𝘺. 𝘛𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘢𝘯 𝘰𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘰 𝘴𝘦𝘭𝘭 𝘢 𝘴𝘦𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘪𝘵𝘺 𝘰𝘳 𝘢 𝘴𝘰𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘪𝘵𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘵𝘰 𝘴𝘦𝘭𝘭 𝘢 𝘴𝘦𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘪𝘵𝘺. 𝘗𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘴𝘦 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘶𝘭𝘵 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘺𝘰𝘶𝘳 𝘊𝘗𝘈, 𝘢𝘵𝘵𝘰𝘳𝘯𝘦𝘺, 𝘢𝘯𝘥/𝘰𝘳 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘧𝘪𝘯𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘴𝘰𝘳 𝘳𝘦𝘨𝘢𝘳𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘴𝘶𝘪𝘵𝘢𝘣𝘪𝘭𝘪𝘵𝘺 𝘰𝘧 𝘢𝘯 𝘪𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘮𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘣𝘺 𝘺𝘰𝘶.

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Which IRA Providers do the Wealthy use? ep. 416

How do you successfully pivot into commercial real estate from an entirely different career? In this episode of REady2Scale, we sit down with Clint Williamson, VP of Partnerships at J Street Property Services. Clint shares his inspiring journey from medical device sales to real estate, providing actionable insights for anyone considering a career change or seeking success in the commercial real estate industry. Discover the secrets behind building meaningful partnerships, navigating market challenges, and uncovering hidden opportunities in lesser-known markets like Kerrville, Texas.

Key Takeaways:

- Career Pivoting Insights: Learn how Clint leveraged his background in medical device sales to transition into real estate and why relationship-building is critical in both industries.

- Building Effective Partnerships: Understand the complexity of partnerships in real estate development and how trust and reputation play pivotal roles in success.

- Exploring Emerging Markets: Get a deep dive into the compelling market factors driving investment in Kerrville, Texas, and how to identify untapped opportunities.

- Navigating Economic Challenges: Gain strategies to manage rising costs, tariffs, and other external pressures while maintaining profitability.

- Long-Term Investment Strategies: Discover J Street’s approach to long-term holds and how HUD financing shapes their development plans.

- Personal Development: Hear Clint’s advice on finding purpose, focusing on your unique gifts, and aligning your career with your personal values.

Whether you're an investor, real estate professional, or someone curious about career reinvention, this episode offers practical wisdom and industry perspectives you won't want to miss.

Whether you're an investor, real estate professional, or someone curious about career reinvention, this episode offers practical wisdom and industry perspectives you won't want to miss.

Are you REady2Scale Your Multifamily Investments?

Learn more about growing your wealth, strengthening your portfolio, and scaling to the next level at www.bluelake-capital.com.

To reach Ellie & the Blue Lake team, email them at info@bluelake-capital.com or complete our investor form at www.bluelake-capital.com/new-investor-form and they'll connect with you.

Credits
Producer: Blue Lake Capital
Strategist: Syed Mahmood
Editor: Emma Walker
Opening music: Pomplamoose

Timestamps
00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview
00:28 Meet Clint Dillard: Career Pivot to Real Estate
04:43 Understanding Real Estate Development
09:33 Exploring Kerrville, Texas: A Unique Market
20:10 Lightning Round and Final Thoughts

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Mastering Real Estate Partnerships (Proven Tips), ep. 417

When it comes to real estate investing, understanding the right metrics can make all the difference. Equity multiple, IRR, and cash-on-cash returns often get thrown around—but what do they mean, and which one should you focus on? In this episode, we break down these essential metrics so you can make more informed investment decisions based on your goals.

Key Takeaways:

-Equity Multiple: Learn how this metric reflects your total return on investment and why it’s ideal for long-term investors.

-Internal Rate of Return (IRR): Understand how IRR factors in the time value of money to compare deals and maximize returns.

-Cash-on-Cash Return: Discover why cash flow matters for investors prioritizing steady income over long-term growth.

-Tailoring Metrics to Your Goals: Identify which metric—equity multiple, IRR, or cash-on-cash—aligns best with your investment strategy.

Whether you’re focused on building long-term wealth, growing your portfolio quickly, or achieving consistent cash flow, this episode will help you navigate the numbers and take actionable steps in your investing journey. 

Are you REady2Scale Your Multifamily Investments?

Learn more about growing your wealth, strengthening your portfolio, and scaling to the next level at www.bluelake-capital.com.

To reach Ellie & the Blue Lake team, email them at info@bluelake-capital.com or complete our investor form at www.bluelake-capital.com/new-investor-form and they'll connect with you.

Credits
Producer: Blue Lake Capital
Strategist: Syed Mahmood 
Editor: Emma Walker
Opening music: Pomplamoose 

Timestamps
00:00 Introduction to Real Estate Investing Metrics
00:51 Understanding Equity Multiple
01:29 Decoding Internal Rate of Return (IRR)
02:49 Exploring Cash on Cash Return
05:05 Conclusion and Final Thoughts 

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IRR vs. Equity Multiple vs. Cash-on-Cash (What Matters Most?), ep. 418

How do you navigate the complexities of multifamily real estate investing in challenging market conditions? In this episode, we uncover strategies to succeed despite headwinds, discuss the importance of operational efficiency, and highlight how focusing on fundamentals can help investors thrive in uncertain times.

Key Takeaways:

- Building Multifamily Portfolios: Learn how to start small and scale strategically, even in turbulent markets.

- 506(b) vs. 506(c): Understand the pros and cons of these fundraising approaches and how they influence investor relationships.
 
- Distressed Assets Opportunities: Explore why market conditions are creating attractive opportunities for prepared investors.

- Operational Excellence: Discover how seamless processes and emerging technologies can boost property performance and investor returns.

- From Cash Flow to Freedom: Learn how shifting from traditional savings to cash flow-focused strategies can create time freedom and financial independence.

https://trcapitalpartner.com/home

Are you REady2Scale Your Multifamily Investments?

Learn more about growing your wealth, strengthening your portfolio, and scaling to the next level at www.bluelake-capital.com.

To reach Ellie & the Blue Lake team, email them at info@bluelake-capital.com or complete our investor form at www.bluelake-capital.com/new-investor-form and they'll connect with you.

Credits
Producer: Blue Lake Capital
Strategist: Syed Mahmood
Editor: Emma Walker
Opening music: Pomplamoose
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

506(b) vs. 506(c): Raising Capital Explained, ep. 419

Are You Ready to Level Up Your Real Estate Investments in 2025?
As the year comes to a close, it’s time to take stock of your real estate portfolio and position yourself for success in the year ahead. In this episode, Jeannette Friedrich, Director of Investor Relations at Blue Lake Capital, shares a simple yet powerful year-end financial checklist designed to help passive real estate investors optimize their strategies and set the stage for a prosperous 2025.

Key Takeaways:
-Why reviewing your portfolio is critical at year-end.
-How to maximize real estate’s unique tax advantages.
-The importance of managing liquidity and staying prepared for new opportunities.
-Why rebalancing and diversification are key to minimizing risk.
-Setting achievable goals to elevate your investment strategy in 2025.
-Gain valuable insights and practical tips to finish the year strong and set yourself up for success. Don’t miss this essential episode!

To access our End of Year Financial Checklist, click here.

Are you REady2Scale Your Multifamily Investments?

Learn more about growing your wealth, strengthening your portfolio, and scaling to the next level at www.bluelake-capital.com.

To reach Ellie & the Blue Lake team, email them at info@bluelake-capital.com or complete our investor form at www.bluelake-capital.com/new-investor-form and they'll connect with you.

Credits
Producer: Blue Lake Capital
Strategist: Syed Mahmood
Editor: Emma Walker
Opening music: Pomplamoose

Timestamps
00:00 Introduction and Overview
00:41 Step 1: Review Your Portfolio
02:05 Step 2: Tax Planning and Optimization
04:29 Step 3: Evaluate Your Liquidity
05:25 Step 4: Rebalance and Diversify
06:28 Step 5: Set Goals for 2025 and Bonus Tips 

*𝘉𝘭𝘶𝘦 𝘓𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘊𝘢𝘱𝘪𝘵𝘢𝘭 𝘪𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘮𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘰𝘱𝘱𝘰𝘳𝘵𝘶𝘯𝘪𝘵𝘪𝘦𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘰𝘱𝘦𝘯 𝘵𝘰 𝘢𝘤𝘤𝘳𝘦𝘥𝘪𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘪𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘰𝘳𝘴 𝘰𝘯𝘭𝘺. 𝘛𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘢𝘯 𝘰𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘰 𝘴𝘦𝘭𝘭 𝘢 𝘴𝘦𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘪𝘵𝘺 𝘰𝘳 𝘢 𝘴𝘰𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘪𝘵𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘵𝘰 𝘴𝘦𝘭𝘭 𝘢 𝘴𝘦𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘪𝘵𝘺. 𝘗𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘴𝘦 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘶𝘭𝘵 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘺𝘰𝘶𝘳 𝘊𝘗𝘈, 𝘢𝘵𝘵𝘰𝘳𝘯𝘦𝘺, 𝘢𝘯𝘥/𝘰𝘳 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘧𝘪𝘯𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘴𝘰𝘳 𝘳𝘦𝘨𝘢𝘳𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘴𝘶𝘪𝘵𝘢𝘣𝘪𝘭𝘪𝘵𝘺 𝘰𝘧 𝘢𝘯 𝘪𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘮𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘣𝘺 𝘺𝘰𝘶.
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End of Year Financial Checklist for Real Estate Investors, ep. 420

How to Buy Real Estate Without Banks: Creative Financing Explained
Are rising home prices and challenging lending standards keeping you from your real estate goals? Imagine owning properties without involving banks, credit checks, or traditional financing. On this episode of REady2Scale, we dive deep into the world of creative financing with Jenn and Joe Delafave, founders of the Creative Finance Playbook. They reveal innovative strategies to acquire real estate and turn renters into homeowners—solutions that can change lives and transform portfolios.

Tune in to learn actionable insights, from acquiring homes with just $100 down to managing a thriving rental business without the hassles of traditional property management.

Key Takeaways:

-Creative Financing 101: Learn how strategies like seller financing, subject-to, and wrap mortgages allow you to buy real estate without banks or credit checks.

-Real-Life Case Studies: Discover how Jenn and Joe acquired turnkey properties for minimal upfront costs, helping sellers offload properties while generating significant cash flow.

-Win-Win Negotiation Tactics: Master the art of asking the right questions to create mutually beneficial deals that meet sellers’ needs and your investment goals.

-Rent-to-Own Success Stories: See how creative financing helps renters with credit challenges become homeowners, offering a path to stability and pride of ownership.

-Scaling Simplified: Find out how Jenn and Joe manage a portfolio across multiple states with minimal hassle by leveraging lease-option agreements.

Whether you’re a seasoned investor or just exploring real estate, this episode is packed with actionable strategies to expand your toolkit and rethink what’s possible.

Resources Mentioned:
-Creative Finance Playbook by Jenn and Joe Delafave
-Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill
-Buy Back Your Time by Dan Martell
-The Mentor Podcast with Ron LeGrand

Connect with the Guests:
-Jenn Delle Fave: Instagram
-Joe Delle Fave: Instagram 

Connect with Us:
Subscribe, like, and leave a review! Let us know what topics you’d like us to cover in future episodes.

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Turn $100 Into a House: Creative Financing Strategies, ep 421

As we continue to scale new heights on our podcast journey, we’re taking a moment to revisit one of our most impactful episodes. For episode 422, we’re replaying Ellie Perlman’s story of founding Blue Lake Capital—an origin story that continues to resonate deeply with our listeners.
Why now? Because as we wrap up another transformative year in real estate investing, this episode serves as a reminder of the bold vision, determination, and purpose that it takes to achieve success. Whether you’re setting goals for the new year or seeking renewed motivation, Ellie’s journey is a testament to what’s possible with hard work and a clear mission.

Key Takeaway:
Your dreams can become goals, and goals can be achieved. The key is to believe in yourself, build the right team of people around you, and be willing to work very hard and with dedication.
Listen in for a fresh dose of inspiration as we reflect on the story that started it all and the lessons that are still shaping the future.

Are you REady2Scale Your Multifamily Investments?
Learn more about growing your wealth, strengthening your portfolio, and scaling to the next level at www.bluelake-capital.com.
To reach Ellie & the Blue Lake team, email them at info@bluelake-capital.com or complete our investor form at www.bluelake-capital.com/new-investor-form and they'll connect with you.

Timestamps
00:00 A Shocking Diagnosis
00:26 Introduction to the Podcast
05:37 Ellie's Early Life in Israel
40:26 Struggles with Health and Work
44:18 A New Beginning: Career Shift
55:05 Building Blue Lake Capital

Credits
Producer: Blue Lake Capital
Strategist: Syed Mahmood
Editor: Emma Walker
Opening music: Pomplamoose

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Revisited: Who are you Ellie Perlman?, ep. 422

Have you ever wondered if there’s opportunity hiding in the struggling office real estate sector? While headlines highlight its challenges, some opportunistic investors are capitalizing on its untapped potential. In this episode, Jeannette Friedrich, Director of Investor Relations at Blue Lake Capital, sits down with Dennis Cisterna, Co-Founder and CIO at Sentinel Net Lease, to explore how strategic investments in office properties can deliver robust returns even in turbulent times.
Key Takeaways:
-Why the Office Sector Isn't Doomed: Gain insight into how the market has broadly misjudged office real estate, creating opportunities for high-quality, stabilized assets at historically low prices.

-Strategic Market Selection: Discover how suburban markets in the Midwest and Southeast are outperforming major urban centers in office absorption and demand.

-Value in Stabilized Assets: Learn why Sentinel Net Lease focuses on Class A properties with long-term leases and mission-critical tenants to ensure strong cash flow and mitigate risk.

-Future of Office Real Estate: Explore Dennis's predictions for a right-sized office market and the shifts in workplace dynamics influencing long-term trends.

-Navigating Tenant Competition: Understand how amenity-rich, move-in-ready properties give competitive edge in attracting and retaining tenants.

-Investment Strategy Beyond Speculation: Learn how stabilized office properties can offer compelling returns today without relying on speculative future interest rate changes.

Whether you're a seasoned investor or new to commercial real estate, this episode is packed with actionable insights to help you navigate the evolving office market and uncover opportunities others are missing.

Are you REady2Scale Your Multifamily Investments?

Learn more about growing your wealth, strengthening your portfolio, and scaling to the next level at www.bluelake-capital.com.

To reach Ellie & the Blue Lake team, email them at info@bluelake-capital.com or complete our investor form at www.bluelake-capital.com/new-investor-form and they'll connect with you.

Guest Information: https://sentinelnetlease.com/ 

Timestamps
00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview
00:25 Meet Dennis Cisterna: Background and Experience
01:23 The Shift from Single Family to Office Investments
03:52 Impact of COVID and Remote Work on Office Sector
08:43 Market Strategies and Opportunities
31:42 Lightning Round and Closing Thoughts

Credits
Producer: Blue Lake Capital
Strategist: Syed Mahmood
Editor: Emma Walker
Opening music: Pomplamoose

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is Office Real Estate Doomed? (Or Dynamite?), ep. 423

Where are people moving to, and where are they leaving? Understanding migration trends is crucial for real estate investors aiming to make informed decisions. In this episode of REady2Scale, Jeannette Friedrich, Director of Investor Relations at Blue Lake Capital, breaks down the 2024 migration reports from U-Haul and Allied Van Lines. Discover which markets are set for growth and which might be on the decline.

Key Takeaways:

- Top Growth Markets: Explore which states saw the highest inbound migration according to U-Haul and Allied Van Lines, including surprising trends in South Carolina, North Carolina, and Tennessee.

- Declining Markets: Learn which states (and why) are at the top of the list for outbound migration and what that means for investors.

- Unexpected Trends: Dive into standout market shifts, including Oklahoma’s dramatic rise and Colorado’s surprising decline in favorability.

- Actionable Insights: Understand how to interpret these trends based on your target tenant demographics and investment strategy, whether you're focused on Class B properties or luxury developments.

Tune in for a data-driven discussion that will help you navigate the dynamic landscape of multifamily real estate in 2025.
Are you REady2Scale Your Multifamily Investments?

Learn more about growing your wealth, strengthening your portfolio, and scaling to the next level at www.bluelake-capital.com.

To reach Ellie & the Blue Lake team, email them at info@bluelake-capital.com or complete our investor form at www.bluelake-capital.com/new-investor-form and they'll connect with you.

Timestamps
00:00 Introduction and Overview
00:33 Understanding Net Migration Trends
02:25 U-Haul and Allied Van Lines Reports
02:29 Top States People Are Moving To
04:07 States People Are Leaving
05:18 Surprising Migration Trends and Conclusion

Credits
Producer: Blue Lake Capital
Strategist: Syed Mahmood
Editor: Emma Walker
Opening music: Pomplamoose

#investing #uhaul #migration
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Best Real Estate Investing Markets (2025), ep. 424

Are you ready to learn how to navigate commercial real estate, scale your portfolio, and build a recession-resistant business? In this episode, David Lilley, founder and CEO of Reap Capital, shares his inspiring journey from serving as a Marine Corps mortar squad leader to leading a $200 million AUM real estate empire. Whether you’re new to investing or looking to scale your business, this episode offers invaluable lessons on leadership, strategic growth, and finding opportunities in challenging markets.

Key Takeaways:
-Starting Small, Thinking Big: How David used VA loans to build a single-family portfolio and transitioned into multifamily for greater economies of scale.

-Overcoming Barriers: The challenges of entering the multifamily market, including building credibility and sourcing off-market deals.

-Scaling Efficiently: Why David started three companies—Reap Capital, Reap Management, and Reap Construction—and how in-house operations provide cost control and operational efficiency.

-Navigating Distress: Insights into structuring partnerships to acquire lender-foreclosed properties with outsized returns, even in a tough capital-raising environment.

-Leadership Insights: The importance of hiring for your weaknesses, delegating effectively, and focusing on the "little things" that lead to long-term success.

This episode is packed with actionable advice and candid reflections from a seasoned operator who has built success step by step. Tune in to gain clarity on how to approach your own investment and leadership journey.

Connect with David Lilley:
Website: ReapCapital.com

Don’t forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the REady2Scale Podcast for more insights from industry leaders!

Are you REady2Scale Your Multifamily Investments?

Learn more about growing your wealth, strengthening your portfolio, and scaling to the next level at www.bluelake-capital.com.

To reach Ellie & the Blue Lake team, email them at info@bluelake-capital.com or complete our investor form at www.bluelake-capital.com/new-investor-form and they'll connect with you.

Timestamps
00:00 Introduction and Market Overview
00:14 Meet David Lilley: From Marine to Real Estate Mogul
01:39 David's Journey into Real Estate
03:23 Scaling Up: From Single Family to Multifamily
06:23 Managing Multiple Companies
09:42 Strategic Partnerships and Future Outlook

Credits
Producer: Blue Lake Capital
Strategist: Syed Mahmood
Editor: Emma Walker
Opening music: Pomplamoose
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How a Retired US Marine Built a $200M Real Estate Portfolio, ep. 425

This week I bring you some good news! The SEC has expanded their current definition of an accredited investor. Why does this matter? Broadening the scope of who is and who is not considered accredited can exponentially increase the amount of opportunity available to investors, as many deals can be exclusive only to those that are. Listen along today to learn what these expanded guidelines are and if you fall into the new parameters. 

View my newest investing opportunity here: https://bit.ly/32bRmob
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S2 EP 129: Special Edition The New Accredited Investor Definition with Ellie Perlman

Lyt når som helst, hvor som helst

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S2 EP 129: *Special Edition* The New Accredited Investor Definition with Ellie Perlman

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S2 EP 129: Special Edition The New Accredited Investor Definition with Ellie Perlman