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MSNBC

Main Justice is the next era of legal analysis from Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord, the veteran lawyers behind the hit podcast Prosecuting Donald Trump. As the criminal cases against Trump wind down and his new administration comes to power, Andrew and Mary draw on their extensive experience working within the Department of Justice to break down what’s happening inside Trump’s DOJ. Each week, they use their platform on Main Justice to safeguard against assaults on our laws, our Constitution, and our democracy.

Prosecuting Donald Trump

Last week’s fatal shooting of Charlie Kirk was deeply disturbing, and as Andrew establishes at the start, “murder is murder” and those responsible must be held to account. So Mary and Andrew begin with where the investigation stands and how the FBI has handled the case, as well as the lawsuit filed against FBI Director Kash Patel over alleged politically motivated firings at the Bureau. Then, co-editor-in-chief of Just Security, Ryan Goodman stops in to share his research around the end of “the presumption of regularity” in the Trump era, amid growing frustration from many lower courts. And lastly, Andrew and Mary dig into the latest twists and turns in the President’s attempt to fire Fed Governor Lisa Cook.

A note to listeners: After today’s recording, Tyler Robinson was charged with felony aggravated murder, among other charges.

Further reading: Here is Ryan Goodman’s research in Just Security: The “Presumption of Regularity” in Trump Administration Litigation

And a reminder: There are still tickets available for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.

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Real Life Consequences

This episode begins with Mary and Andrew digesting the 2-1 decision from the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals halting the Trump administration’s ability to use the Alien Enemies Act to deport Venezuelan nationals accused of being members of Tren de Aragua. Andrew calls the administration’s recent arguments “outlandish” before moving to the questionable legality of the U.S. military’s deadly boat strike last week – an unprecedented action which left eleven dead. Next, they move to Monday’s Supreme Court decision undoing limits set by a lower court on how ICE conducts immigration raids. Plus, a federal judge issues a win for Harvard University on the topic of frozen and terminated funds. 

Further reading: The 5th Circuit Court of Appeals’ ruling on Trump’s invocation of the Alien Enemies Act to deport Venezuelans

And a reminder: tickets are on sale now for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.

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Upending the Law

After a Labor Day weekend that saw a judge halt the Trump administration's attempt to deport dozens of Guatemalan children already loaded onto airplanes, Andrew and Mary had planned to start their conversation there. But just this morning, Judge Charles Breyer ruled the administration cannot deploy U.S. military to carry out law enforcement operations, as this violates the Posse Comitatus Act. Andrew and Mary provide historical context for the act and walk us through the rationale of this latest ruling. Then, they take a beat on moves to oust two more Trump appointed U.S. Attorneys in California and Nevada who have yet to be congressionally approved. And last up, they review several big cases on tariffs, Lisa Cook, and cuts to foreign aid.

Further reading: 

 • Here is Judge Thomas T. Cullen’s opinion dismissing 
Trump’s lawsuit against Maryland federal judges. • And here is Judge Charles Breyer’s ruling on the Posse Comitatus Act: 
Opinion granting injunctive relief
And a reminder: tickets are on sale now for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.

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Assault on Congress

On Monday, after Kilmar Abrego Garcia was taken into ICE custody, Judge Paula Xinis temporarily barred the Trump administration from deporting him to Uganda. Mary and Andrew begin here, reminding listeners that the origin of his case stems from a mistake made by our government. Next, they detail the questionable nature of the FBI raid on former National Security Advisor John Bolton’s home and office before diving into some 30+ letters sent by Attorney General Pam Bondi to blue-leaning jurisdictions, with the aim of ending their sanctuary policies. Last up, Mary and Andrew drill down on Trump’s latest executive order related to a rapidly deployable National Guard unit, as he sharpens threats to send troops into more cities.

Further reading: 

 • Trump’s Executive Order: 
ADDITIONAL MEASURES TO ADDRESS THE CRIME EMERGENCY IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA • Garrett Graff's piece Mary referred to: 
America Tips Into Fascism
And a reminder: tickets are on sale now for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.

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We are in a Different Place

It's been another wild week, after the D.C. Attorney General sued the government for attempting to install the head of the D.E.A. as D.C.’s emergency police commissioner. Following an emergency hearing, US Attorney General Pam Bondi backed down and re-wrote the directive. But Andrew and Mary highlight why that’s just the start: it’s no longer just the D.C. National Guard being deployed in the nation’s capital, National Guard units from five other red states are being sent to the city, making a complicated stew of who’s in charge and who has jurisdiction. Next, they weave this thread into last week's trial over whether California’s National Guard performed law enforcement operations in Los Angeles, a potential violation of The Posse Comitatus Act. And with Russia and Ukraine so much in the news, Andrew offers some reflections from the 2019 Special Counsel’s report that exposes Russia’s long-held goal of taking over the Donbas region. And last up, Andrew and Mary fill listeners in on two DC Circuit cases that have their attention: a decision allowing the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau to be dismantled and another that allows Trump to withhold billions in foreign aid.

And a reminder: tickets are on sale now for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.

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Normalizing Militarization

When “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength” we are living in an era of alternate facts. Mary and Andrew apply this Orwellian concept to what's happening this week, after President Trump cited section 740 of the Home Rule Act to federalize the DC police force and send in the national guard to the nation’s capital. They detail how the president was able to do this and why Congress will be the ultimate arbiter of this move. Then, they highlight some litigation befitting this theme, with Judge Breyer’s trial starting this week on the use of the national guard in Los Angeles, and some decisions including not to unseal grand jury testimony in the Ghislaine Maxwell case, plus an Appeals court blocking contempt proceedings in JGG. Last up, Andrew and Mary take a look at Judge Henderson’s opinion in the OMB case and why it deserves more attention than it’s received. 

Further reading: Here is President Trump’s letter to Congress citing section 740, courtesy of the New York Times.

And some exciting news: tickets are on sale now for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.

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Demonstrably False

Accountability or weaponization? That's the question Andrew and Mary tackle in their 150th episode together, starting with the distraction of the Office of the Special Counsel's investigation into Jack Smith for possible Hatch Act violations. In other DOJ related matters, they give some context to the Trump administration’s continued battle to keep Alina Habba, a Trump ally, as New Jersey U.S. Attorney, just as The Legal Accountability Center filed bar complaints against lawyers who have represented Trump’s White House in court. In another sideshow, Andrew and Mary break down what to make of a report on the “Clinton Plan” emails, declassified amid the Epstein controversy. And last up, they detail the decision out of the 9th Circuit Court which upheld a pause on ICE raids in California. 

Further Reading: 

Here is the piece Andrew and his colleague Ryan Goodman wrote for Just Security in October 2024: Refuting the Latest Baseless Attacks Against Special Counsel Jack Smith

Here is the 9th Circuit Court decision on ICE Raids: Appeal from the United States District Court for the Central District of California 

And some exciting news: tickets are on sale now for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.

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Distractions and Sideshows

If it’s customary, it’s probably not happening in this Justice Department. Starting with the latest from the Epstein controversy, Andrew and Mary unpack what to make of the two days Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche spent interviewing Ghislaine Maxwell. This, after a Florida judge denied the release of Epstein grand jury transcripts last Wednesday.And in immigration related news, three decisions came through in the Kilmar Abrego Garcia saga, just as the first claim is filed against the U.S. over one man’s deportation to El Salvador without due process. Then, in an eye-popping move, Attorney General Pam Bondi’s office filed a misconduct complaint against Judge James Boasberg for “making improper public comments” about the President and his administration. And before wrapping up this week, Mary and Andrew give some context to the former J6 prosecutor who’s suing the administration over his abrupt firing.

Further Reading: Here is the misconduct complaint filed against Judge Boasberg: Complaint Against United States District Court Chief Judge James E. Boasberg

And some exciting news: tickets are on sale now for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.

Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

 
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An Unrecognizable Justice Department

Pressured for transparency from all sides of the aisle, the Department of Justice made a surprising move to try and unseal grand jury materials from the Jeffery Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell cases. Andrew and Mary discuss why this move is so shocking and what it signifies. They also look at the latest sentencing for an ex-officer involved in the 2020 raid that killed Breonna Taylor and what a trial on behalf of international students and faculty detained for pro-Palestinian activism revealed about ICE’s practices. Finally, they unpack the DOJ’s firing of Maurene Comey and Attorney General Pam Bondi’s firing of a New Jersey attorney who replaced a long-term Trump ally. 

Listener Note: This episode was recorded prior to the ruling from a Florida court that denied the requested grand jury materials in the Jeffery Epstein case. However, the DOJ’s other request related to a grand jury in the Southern District of New York remains pending.

Further reading:

 • Here is the 
op-ed • written by Rümeysa Öztürk in the Tufts Daily about her time in a women’s ICE facility.

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Disestablishment of the Law

Following the emergence of new evidence from messages submitted by the Department of Justice's whistleblower, Erez Reuveni, Andrew and Mary discuss its potential implications for the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia and the confirmation process of Emil Bove III. They also examine a Southern California ruling to halt immigration stops based on race. On the other coast, they look at a temporary block of Trump's order restricting birthright citizenship—a case where Mary has particular expertise via her role in a related birthright citizenship case: CASA v. Trump. Finally, SCOTUS paves way for mass layoffs of federal workers, and DOJ opens investigations into former FBI Director James Comey and former CIA Director John Brennan.

Listener Note: This podcast was recorded several hours before the Supreme Court decision allowing for the dismantling of the Department of Education. Andrew and Mary will discuss on next week's episode.

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This is Not Normal

Despite Donald Trump’s objections, Mike Pence testified before the Jan. 6th grand jury for several hours last week. But if you strip away the insurrection and the attempt to overturn the election, did Trump also try to solicit a crime of violence against Pence himself? MSNBC legal analysts Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord get into that and what it could all mean for Special Counsel Jack Smith’s investigation.

 
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Mike Pence Testifies

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