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Freakonomics Radio + Stitcher

Freakonomics co-author Steve Levitt tracks down other high achievers for surprising, revealing conversations about their lives and obsessions. Join Levitt as he goes through the most interesting midlife crisis you’ve ever heard — and learn how a renegade sheriff is transforming Chicago's jail, how a biologist is finding the secrets of evolution in the Arctic tundra, and how a trivia champion memorized 160,000 flashcards.

To get every show in the Freakonomics Radio Network without ads and a monthly bonus episode of Freakonomics Radio, start a free trial for SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus.

People I (Mostly) Admire

She’s a botanist, a member of the Citizen Potawatomi Nation, and the author of the bestselling Braiding Sweetgrass. In her new book she criticizes the market economy — but she and Steve find a surprising amount of common ground.

 

SOURCES:Robin Wall Kimmerer • , botanist and founder and director of the Center for Native Peoples and the Environment.

 

RESOURCES:The Serviceberry: Abundance and Reciprocity in the Natural World • , by Robin Wall Kimmerer (2024).
Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants • , by Robin Wall Kimmerer (2015).
Gathering Moss: A Natural and Cultural History of Mosses, • by Robin Wall Kimmerer (2003).
 • "
The Deadweight Loss of Christmas • ," by Joel Waldfogel 
(The American Economic Review, • 1993).
 • "
Reproductive Ecology of Tetraphis pellucida. I. Population Density and Reproductive Mode • ," by Robin Wall Kimmerer 
(The Bryologist, • 1991).

 

EXTRAS: • "
The Deadliest Disease in Human History • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2025).
 • "
How Smart Is a Forest? • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2023).
 • "
Jane Goodall Changed the Way We See Animals. She’s Not Done. • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2022).

159. Robin Wall Kimmerer’s Manifesto for a Gift Economy

How psychologist Dan Gilbert went from high school dropout to Harvard professor, found the secret of joy, and inspired Steve Levitt's divorce.

 

SOURCE:Daniel Gilbert • , professor of psychology at Harvard University.

 

RESOURCES: • "
What the Data Says (and Doesn’t Say) About Crime in the United States • ," by John Gramlich (Pew Research Center, 2020).
Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress • , by Stephen Pinker (2018).
 • "
Mistakenly Seeking Solitude • ," by Nicholas Epley and Juliana Schroeder (
Journal of Experimental Psychology • , 2014).
 • "
Just Think: The Challenges of the Disengaged Mind • ," by Timothy D. Wilson, David A. Reinhard, Erin C. Westgate, Daniel T. Gilbert, Nicole Ellerbeck, Cheryl Hahn, Casey L. Brown, and Adi Shaked (
Science • , 2013).
 • "
The End of History Illusion • ," by Jordi Quoidbach, Daniel T. Gilbert, and Timothy D. Wilson (
Science • , 2013).
Happy Money: The Science of Smarter Spending • , by Elizabeth Dunn (2013).
 • "
If Money Doesn't Make You Happy Then You Probably Aren't Spending It Right • ," by Elizabeth W. Dunn, Daniel T. Gilbert, and Timothy D. Wilson (
Journal of Consumer Psychology • , 2011).
This Emotional Life • , by Daniel Gilbert (2010).
Stumbling on Happiness • , by Dan Gilbert (2006).
 • "
Affective Forecasting • ," by Timothy D. Wilson and Daniel T. Gilbert (
Advances in Experimental Social Psychology • , 2003).

 

EXTRAS: • "
Drawing from Life (and Death) • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2023).
 • "
Who Gives the Worst Advice? • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2021).
 • "
Sendhil Mullainathan Thinks Messing Around Is the Best Use of Your Time • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2021).
 • "
Am I Boring You? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2015).

Turning Work into Play (Update)

In her book, Rumbles, medical historian Elsa Richardson explores the history of the human gut. She talks with Steve about dubious medical practices, gruesome tales of survival, and the things that medieval doctors may have gotten right.

 

SOURCE:Elsa Richardson • , medical historian at the University of Strathclyde.

 

RESOURCES:Rumbles: A Curious History of the Gut: The Secret Story of the Body's Most Fascinating Organ • , by Elsa Richardson (2024).
Michael Levitt retirement speech • (2024).
 • "
Was There Really a Hawthorne Effect at the Hawthorne Plant? An Analysis of the Original Illumination Experiments • ," by Steven D. Levitt and John A. List (
NBER Working Paper, • 2009).
 • "
Floating Stools — Flatus versus Fat • ," by Michael D. Levitt and William C. Duane (
The New England Journal of Medicine, • 1972).
 • "
Factors Influencing Pulmonary Methane Excretion in Man • ," by John H. Bond, Rolf R. Engel, and Michael D. Levitt (
Journal of Experimental Medicine, • 1971).
The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals, • by Charles Darwin (1872).
The Levitt Lab Founding School Leader • , job listing.
The Levitt Lab • , information page.

 

EXTRAS: • "
An Update on the Khan World School • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2023).
 • “
Is This the Future of High School? • ” by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2022).
 • “
Sal Khan: ‘If It Works for 15 Cousins, It Could Work for a Billion People • ,'” by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2021).
 • "
The Power of Poop • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2011).

147. Is Your Gut a Second Brain?

Sarah Stein Greenberg runs Stanford’s d.school, which teaches design as a mode of problem solving. She and Steve talk about what makes her field different from other academic disciplines, how to approach hard problems, and why brainstorms are so annoying.

 

SOURCE:Sarah Stein Greenberg • , executive director of the Hasso Plattner Institute of Design at Stanford University.

 

RESOURCES:Creative Acts for Curious People: How to Think, Create, and Lead in Unconventional Ways • , by Sarah Stein Greenberg (2021).
Noora Health • .
Civilla • .
Substantial • .
Rare • .
Sarah Stein Greenberg wildlife photography • .

 

EXTRAS: • "
Feeling Sound and Hearing Color • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2024).
 • "
Why Are Boys and Men in Trouble? • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2024).
 • "
What’s Impacting American Workers? • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2024).
 • "
Richard Dawkins on God, Genes, and Murderous Baby Cuckoos • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2024).
 • "
The World’s Most Controversial Ornithologist • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2024).
 • "
How PETA Made Radical Ideas Mainstream • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2024).
 • "
Pay Attention! (Your Body Will Thank You) • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2024).
 • "
How to Have Great Conversations • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2024).
 • "
Suleika Jaouad’s Survival Mechanisms • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2024).
 • "
Daron Acemoglu on Economics, Politics, and Power • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2024).
 • "
Nobel Laureate Claudia Goldin on 'Greedy Work' and the Wage Gap • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2023).
 • "
A Rockstar Chemist and Her Cancer-Attacking 'Lawn Mower • ,'" by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2022).
 • "
Daniel Kahneman on Why Our Judgment is Flawed — and What to Do About It • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2021).
 • "
Why Is Richard Thaler Such a ****ing Optimist? • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2021).

148. How to Have Good Ideas

Sarah Hart investigates the mathematical structures underlying musical compositions and literature. Using examples from Monteverdi to Lewis Carroll, Sarah explains to Steve how math affects how we hear music and understand stories. 

 

SOURCE:Sarah Hart • , professor emerita of mathematics at the University of London.

 

RESOURCES:Once Upon a Prime: The Wondrous Connections Between Mathematics and Literature, • by Sarah Hart (2023).
 • "
Ahab's Arithmetic: The Mathematics of Moby-Dick • ," by Sarah B. Hart (
Journal of Humanistic Mathematics, • 2021).
 • "
Online Lecture: The Mathematics of Musical Composition • ," by Sarah Hart (Gresham College, 2020).
Black Mirror: Bandersnatch, • film (2018).
The Luminaries: A Novel, • by Eleanor Catton (2013).
Not Quite What I Was Planning: Six-Word Memoirs by Writers Famous and Obscure, • edited by Rachel Fershleiser and Larry Smith (2008).
Les Revenentes, • by Georges Perec (1972).
A Void, • by Georges Perec (1969).
Cent Mille Milliards de Poèmes, • by Raymond Queneau (1961).
Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There, • by Lewis Carroll (1871).
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, • by Lewis Carroll (1865).
OuLiPo • .

 

EXTRAS: • "
The Joy of Math With Sarah Hart • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2023).
 • "
Mathematician Sarah Hart on Why Numbers are Music to Our Ears • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2021).

Why Numbers are Music to Our Ears (Update)

Jonathan Levin is an academic economist who now runs one of the most influential universities in the world. He tells Steve how he saved Comcast a billion dollars, why he turned down Steve’s unusual pitch to come to the University of Chicago, and why being a nice guy makes him a better college president.

 

SOURCE • :
Jonathan Levin • , president of Stanford University. 

 

RESOURCES: • "
Income Segregation and Intergenerational Mobility Across Colleges in the United States • ," by Raj Chetty, John N Friedman, Emmanuel Saez, Nicholas Turner, and Danny Yagan (
The Quarterly Journal of Economics, • 2020).
 • "
Jonathan Levin: The Most Recent John Bates Clark Medal Winner • ," by Steve Levitt (
Freakonomics Blog, • 2011).
 • "
Winning Play in Spectrum Auctions • ," by Jeremy Bulow, Jonathan Levin, and Paul Milgrom (
NBER Working Paper, • 2009).
 • "
Information and Competition in U.S. Forest Service Timber Auctions • ," by Susan Athey and Jonathan Levin (
Journal of Political Economy, • 2001).

 

EXTRAS:Vintage Pokémon card pack Instagram video • , by Tyler Thrasher (2025).
 • "
Higher Education Is Broken. Can It Be Fixed? • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2023).
 • "
How Much Are the Right Friends Worth? • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2022).

149. Stanford’s President Knows He Can’t Make Everyone Happy

Hank Green is an internet phenomenon and a master communicator, with a plan to reform higher education. He and Steve talk about the video blog that launched Hank’s career, the economics of the internet, and how a cancer diagnosis prompted him to become a stand-up comedian.

 

SOURCES:Hank Green • , founder of Complexly and science communicator

 

RESOURCES:ComplexlyCrashCourse YouTube ChannelSciShow YouTube ChannelVlogbrothers YouTube ChannelThe Show with Ze FrankStudy Hall"An Absolutely Remarkable Thing," • by Hank Green (2018)
"A Beautifully Foolish Endeavor," • by Hank Green (2020)
 • "
So, I've got cancer, • " by 
Vlogbrothers • (2023)
 • "
My Cancer Press Tier List, • " by 
Vlogbrothers • (2023)
 • "
Between Two Kingdoms: A Memoir of a Life Interrupted • " by Suleika Jaouad (2021)
 • "
The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime, • " by John Donohue III and Steve Levitt 
(The Quarterly Journal of Economics, • 2001)
 • "
Hoodwinked? • " by Stephen Dubner and Steve Levitt 
(New York Times, • 2006)
 • "
An Ancient Roman Shipwreck May Explain the Universe, • " by 
SciShow • (2024)

 

EXTRAS: • "
John Green’s Reluctant Rocket Ship Ride, • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2022)
 • "
Suleika Jaouad’s Survival Mechanisms, • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2024)

150. His Brilliant Videos Get Millions of Views. Why Don’t They Make Money?

The primatologist discusses the thrill of observing chimpanzees in the wild, the value of challenging orthodoxy, and why dying is her next great adventure.

 

SOURCES:Dr. Jane Goodall, GBE • , founder of the Jane Goodall Institute and U.N. Messenger of Peace.

 

RESOURCES:The Book of Hope: A Survival Guide for Trying Times, • by Jane Goodall, Douglas Abrams, and Gail Hudson (2021).
Jane • , by Brett Morgen (2017).
 • “
Remembering My Mentor: Robert Hinde • ,” by Jane Goodall (2017).
The Soul of an Octopus: A Surprising Exploration into the Wonder of Consciousness, • by Sy Montgomery (2015).
Dr. Spock On Parenting: Sensible, Reassuring Advice for Today’s Parent, • by by Benjamin Spock, M.D. (2001).
The Mentality of Apes, • by Wolfgang Kohler (1976).
 • “
Miss Goodall and the Wild Chimpanzees • ,” (1965).

 

EXTRAS:Roots and Shoots • .
Jane Goodall Hopecast • .
The Jane Goodall Institute • .
Grameen Foundation • .
 • “
A Cross Between Sherlock Holmes and Indiana Jones • ,” by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2022).
 • “‘
No One Can Resist a Jolly, Happy Pig • ,'” by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2022).

Jane Goodall Changed the Way We See Animals. She’s Not Done. (Replay)

Owen Flanagan's newest book details his 20-year dependence on alcohol and pills — and outlines his research on what addiction can tell us about the nature of consciousness.

 

SOURCES:Owen Flanagan, • philosopher, neurobiologist, and professor emeritus at Duke University.

 

RESOURCES:What Is It Like to Be an Addict?: Understanding Substance Abuse, • by Owen Flanagan (2025).
Consciousness Reconsidered, • by Owen Flanagan (1993).
Against Happiness, • by Owen Flanagan, Joseph E. LeDoux, Bobby Bingle, Daniel M. Haybron, Batja Mesquita, Michele Moody-Adams, Songyao Ren, Anna Sun, and Yolonda Y. Wilson. (2023).
The Bodhisattva's Brain: Buddhism Naturalized, • by Owen Flanagan (2013).
The Really Hard Problem: Meaning in a Material World, • by Owen Flanagan (2009).
Big Book, • by Alcoholics Anonymous.
 • "
Impact of the DSM-IV to DSM-5 Changes on the National Survey on Drug Use and Health, • " by Cristie Glasheen, Kathryn Batts, Rhonda Karg, Jonaki Bose, Sarra Hedden, and Kathryn Piscopo 
(Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, • 2016).

 

EXTRAS: • "
Professor Carl Hart Argues All Drugs Should Be Legal — Can He Convince Steve? • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2021).
Drug Use for Grown-Ups: Chasing Liberty in the Land of Fear, • by Carl Hart (2021).

151. Neurobiologist, Philosopher, and Addict

Chemist Jack Szostak wants to understand how the first life forms came into being on Earth. He and Steve discuss the danger of "mirror bacteria," the origin of biology in poisonous chemicals, and the possibility that life might exist on other planets too. 

 

SOURCES:Jack Szostak, • Nobel laureate and professor of chemistry at The University of Chicago.

 

RESOURCES:Is Earth Exceptional?: The Quest for Cosmic Life, • by Mario Livio and Jack Szostak (2024)
 • "
Q&A: How ‘Mirror Bacteria’ Could Take a Devastating Toll on Humanity, • " by Isabella Backman (
Yale School of Medicine, • 2024
). • "
The virtual circular genome model for primordial RNA replication, • " by Jack Szostak, Lijun Zhou, and Dian Ding 
(RNA, • 2021).
 • "
Protocells and RNA Self-Replication, • " by Gerald Joyce and Jack Szostak 
(Cold Spring Harbor Perspectives in Biology, • 2018).
 • "
The Narrow Road to the Deep Past: In Search of the Chemistry of the Origin of Life, • " by Jack Szostak 
(Angewandte Chemie International Edition, • 2017).
 • "
Jack Szostak on 'Life in the Lab' (And Autocatalytic Sets) • " by Suzan Mazur 
(Huffington Post, • 2014).
 • "
Jack W. Szostak Interview • " 
(The Nobel Prize, • 2009).
 • "
The Miller-Urey Experiment • " 
(National Center for Science Education). • "
From Old Vials, New Hints on Origin of Life, • " by Kenny Chang 
(New York Times, • 2008).

 

EXTRAS • :
What Is It Like to Be an Addict?: Understanding Substance Abuse, • by Owen Flanagan (2025)
 • "
UPDATE: What It’s Like to Be Steve Levitt’s Daughters, • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2024).
 • "
We Can Play God Now, • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2022).

152. Hunting for the Origins of Life

Playing notes on her piano, she demonstrates for Steve why whole numbers sound pleasing, why octaves are mathematically imperfect, and how math underlies musical composition. Sarah, a professor at the University of London and Gresham College, also talks with Steve about the gender gap in mathematics and why being interested in everything can be a problem.

49. Mathematician Sarah Hart on Why Numbers are Music to Our Ears

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