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Freakonomics Radio + Stitcher

Freakonomics co-author Steve Levitt tracks down other high achievers for surprising, revealing conversations about their lives and obsessions. Join Levitt as he goes through the most interesting midlife crisis you’ve ever heard — and learn how a renegade sheriff is transforming Chicago's jail, how a biologist is finding the secrets of evolution in the Arctic tundra, and how a trivia champion memorized 160,000 flashcards.

To get every show in the Freakonomics Radio Network without ads and a monthly bonus episode of Freakonomics Radio, start a free trial for SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus.

People I (Mostly) Admire

Seth Berkley used to run the world's largest vaccine funding organization. He and Steve talk about the incredible value of vaccines, the economics of immunizing the developing world, and the current attacks on public health.

 

SOURCES:Seth Berkley • , epidemiologist at Brown University School of Public Health.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Trump Administration Ends Program Critical to Search for an H.I.V. Vaccine • ," by Apoorva Mandavilli 
(New York Times, • 2025).
Fair Doses: An Insider's Story of the Pandemic and the Global Fight for Vaccine Equity, • by Seth Berkley (2025).
 • "
How a partnership saved millions of children’s lives with vaccines • ," 
(Gates Foundation).Gavi, the Vaccine Alliance • .

 

EXTRAS: • "
Sendhil Mullainathan Thinks Messing Around Is the Best Use of Your Time • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2021).
 • "
Moncef Slaoui: 'It’s Unfortunate That It Takes a Crisis for This to Happen • ,'" by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2020).

166. The World’s Most Effective Public Health Intervention Is Under Attack

Stefanie Stantcheva’s approach seemed like career suicide. In fact, it won her the John Bates Clark Medal. She talks to fellow winner Steve Levitt about why she uses methods that most of the profession dismisses — and what she’s found that can’t be learned any other way.

 

SOURCES:Stefanie Stantcheva • , professor of political economy at Harvard University.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Understanding Economic Behavior Using Open-ended Survey Data • ," by Ingar Haaland, Christopher Roth, Stefanie Stantcheva, and Johannes Wohlfart 
(Working Paper, • 2025).
 • "
Fighting Climate Change: International Attitudes toward Climate Policies • ," by Antoine Dechezleprêtre, Adrien Fabre, Tobias Kruse, Bluebery Planterose, Ana Sanchez Chico, and Stefanie Stantcheva 
(American Economic Review, • 2025).
 • "
Zero-Sum Thinking and the Roots of U.S. Political Divides • ," by Stefanie Stantcheva 
(NBER Working Paper, • 2024).
 • "
Why Do We Dislike Inflation? • ," by Stefanie Stantcheva 
(NBER Working Paper, • 2024).
 • "
How to Run Surveys: A Guide to Creating Your Own Identifying Variation and Revealing the Invisible • ," by Stefanie Stantcheva 
(Annual Review of Economics, • 2022).
 • "
Eliciting People's First-Order Concerns: Text Analysis of Open-Ended Survey Questions • ," by Beatrice Ferrario and Stefanie Stantcheva 
(NBER Working Paper, • 2022).
 • "
Understanding Tax Policy: How Do People Reason? • ," by Stefanie Stantcheva 
(The Quarterly Journal of Economics, • 2021).
 • "
Immigration and Redistribution • ," by Alberto Alesina, Armando Miano, and Stefanie Stantcheva 
(NBER Working Paper, • 2018).

 

EXTRAS:VerbAI by Generation Lab • .

165. The Economist Who (Gasp!) Asks People What They Think

From recording some of the first rap hits to revitalizing Johnny Cash's career, the legendary producer has had an extraordinary creative life. In this episode he talks about his new book and his art-making process — and helps Steve get in touch with his own artistic side. 

 

SOURCES:Rick Rubin • , music producer and record executive.

 

RESOURCES:The Creative Act: A Way of Being, • by Rick Rubin (2023).
 • “
How Google’s AlphaGo Beat a Go World Champion • ,” by Christopher Moyer (
The Atlantic, • 2016).
 • “
DMC: The Real Story of Aerosmith + Run-D.M.C.’s ‘Walk This Way’ • ,” by 
Loudwire • (2016).
 • “
Hurt • ,” by Johnny Cash, music video (2003).
 • “
Walk This Way • ,” by Run-DMC, ft. Aerosmoth (1986).
 • “
It’s Yours • ,” by T La Rock (1984).
 • “
Walk This Way • ,” by Aerosmith (1975).
The Way of Code • .

 

EXTRAS: • “
How To Be Creative • ,” series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2018).

Rick Rubin on How to Make Something Great (Update)

More than two decades ago, Adam Riess’s Nobel Prize-winning work fundamentally changed our understanding of the universe. His new work is reshaping cosmology for a second time.

 

RESOURCES:Adam Riess • , astrophysicist at Johns Hopkins University.

 

SOURCES: • "
The Nobel Prize Winner Who Thinks We Have the Universe All Wrong • ," by Ross Andersen 
(The Atlantic, • 2025).
 • "
The answer to life, the universe and everything might be 73. Or 67 • ," by Hannah Devlin 
(The Guardian, • 2018).
 • "
Adam G. Riess Nobel Prize Lecture • ," 
(The Nobel Foundation, • 2011).
 • "
Breakthroughs 1998 • ," by Floyd Bloom 
(Science, • 1998).
 • "
Observational Evidence from Supernovae for an Accelerating Universe and a Cosmological Constant • ," by Adam Riess, Alexei Filippenko, Peter Challis, Alejandro Clocchiatti, Alan Diercks, Peter Garnavich, Ron Gilliland, Craig Hogan, Saurabh Jha, Robert Kirshner, Bruno Leibundgut, Mark Phillips, David Reiss, Brian Schmidt, Robert Schommer, Chris Smith, Jason Spyromilio, Christopher Stubbs, Nicholas Suntzeff, and John Tonry 
(The Astronomical Journal, • 1998).
 • "
1912: Henrietta Leavitt Discovers the Distance Key • ," 
(Carnegie Institution for Science) • .

164. Unravelling the Universe, Again

Uri Simonsohn is a behavioral science professor who wants to improve standards in his field — so he’s made a sideline of investigating fraudulent academic research. He tells Steve Levitt, who's spent plenty of time rooting out cheaters in other fields, how he does it.

 

SOURCES:Uri Simonsohn • , professor of behavioral science at Esade Business School.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Gino v. President and Fellows of Harvard College • ," 
(Court Listener, • 2025).
 • "
Statement from Dan Ariely • ," (2024).
 • "
Data Falsificada (Part 4): 'Forgetting The Words • ,'" by Uri Simonsohn, Leif Nelson, and Joe Simmons 
(Data Colada, • 2023).
 • "
They Studied Dishonesty. Was Their Work a Lie? • " by Gideon Lewis-Kraus 
(The New Yorker, • 2023).
 • "
Evidence of Fraud in an Influential Field Experiment About Dishonesty • ," by Uri Simonsohn, Leif Nelson, and Joe Simmons 
(Data Colada, • 2023).
 • "
Signing at the beginning makes ethics salient anddecreases dishonest self-reports in comparison tosigning at the end • ," by Lisa Shu, Nina Mazar, Francesca Gino, Dan Ariely, and Max Bazerman 
(PNAS, • 2021).
 • "
Power Posing: Reassessing The Evidence Behind The Most Popular TED Talk • ," by Uri Simonsohn and Joe Simmons 
(Data Colada • , 2015).
 • "
Your Body Language May Shape Who You Are • ," by Amy Cuddy 
(TED, • 2012).
 • "
Daily Horizons: Evidence of Narrow Bracketing in Judgment from 10 Years of MBA-Admission Interviews • ," by Uri Simohnson and Francesa Gino 
(Psychological Science, • 2012).
 • "
Spurious? Name similarity effects (implicit egotism) in marriage, job, and moving decisions • ," by Uri Simohnson 
(Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, • 2011).
 • "
False-Positive Psychology: Undisclosed Flexibility in Data Collection and Analysis Allows Presenting Anything as Significant • ," by Joe Simmons, Leif Nelson, and Uri Simohnson 
(Psychological Science, • 2011).

 

EXTRAS: • "
Will We Solve the Climate Problem? • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2025).
 • "
Why Is There So Much Fraud in Academia? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2024).
 • "
When I'm Sixty Four • ," by The Beatles (1967).

163. The Data Sleuth Taking on Shoddy Science

Former U.S. Secretary of Education, 3x3 basketball champion, and leader of an anti-gun violence organization are all on Arne’s resume. He’s also Steve’s neighbor. The two talk about teachers caught cheating in Chicago public schools and Steve shares a story he’s never told Arne, about a defining moment in the educator’s life.

 

SOURCES:Arne Duncan • , the 9th U.S. Secretary of Education; founder of C.R.E.D.; former head of Chicago Public Schools; and former professional basketball player.

 

RESOURCES:How Schools Work, • by Arne Duncan (2018).
 • "
Benji • ," (ESPN's 
30 for 30, • 2012).

 

EXTRAS:Chicago C.R.E.D.

Arne Duncan Says All Kids Deserve a Chance — and Criminals Deserve a Second One (Update)

Kate Marvel spends her days playing with climate models, which she says are “like a very expensive version of The Sims.” As a physicist she gets tired of being asked to weigh in on economics, geopolitics, and despair — but she still defends the right of scientists to have strong feelings about the planet.

 

SOURCES:Kate Marvel • , climate scientist and science writer.

 

RESOURCES:Human Nature: Nine Ways to Feel About Our Changing Planet, • by Kate Marvel (2025).
 • "
Are Americans Concerned About Global Warming? • " 
(Gallup, • 2024).
 • "
Can clouds buy us more time to solve climate change? • " by Kate Marvel 
(TED, • 2017).
SuperFreakonomics: Global Cooling, Patriotic Prostitutes, and Why Suicide Bombers Should Buy Life Insurance, • by Stephen Dubner and Steve Levitt (2011).
 • "
Global Warming’s Six Americas • ," 
(Yale Program on Climate Change Communication) • .
 • "
Fred Rogers: Look for the Helpers • ."

162. Will We Solve the Climate Problem?

Twenty years ago, before the Freakonomics book tour, Bill McGowan taught Steve Levitt to speak in public. In his new book he tries to teach everyone else.

 

SOURCES:Bill McGowan • , founder and C.E.O. of Clarity Media Group.

 

RESOURCES:Speak, Memorably: The Art of Captivating an Audience, • by Bill McGowan (2025).
 • "
Sheryl Sandberg Gives UC Berkeley Commencement Keynote Speech • ," 
(UC Berkeley, • 2016).
 • "
Our failing schools. Enough is enough! • " by Geoffrey Canada 
(TED, • 2013).

 

EXTRAS: • "
The Power of a Bad Example – A Field Experiment In Household Garbage Disposal • ," by Robert Dur and Ben Vollaard 
(Tilburg Law and Economics Center, • 2013).
 • "
Unit pricing of municipal solid waste and illegal dumping: an empirical analysis of Korean experience • ," by Geum-Soo Kim, Young-Jae Chang and David Kelleher 
(Environmental Economics and Policy Studies, • 2008).
 • "
Garbage, Recycling, and Illicit Burning or Dumping • ," by Don Fullerton and Thomas Kinnaman 
(Journal of Environmental Economics and Management, • 2002).

161. How to Captivate an Audience

Former professional poker player Annie Duke wrote a book about Steve’s favorite subject: quitting. They talk about why quitting is so hard, how to do it sooner, and why we feel shame when we do something that’s good for us.

 

SOURCES:Annie Duke • , author and former professional poker player.

 

RESOURCES:Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away, • by Annie Duke (2022).
 • "
Heads or Tails: The Impact of a Coin Toss on Major Life Decisions and Subsequent Happiness • ," by Steven Levitt (
NBER Working Papers, • 2016).
Superforecasting: The Art and Science of Prediction, • by Philip E. Tetlock and Dan Gardner (2015).
 • "
Knee-Deep in the Big Muddy: A Study of Escalating Commitment to a Chosen Course of Action • ," by Barry M. Staw 
(Organizational Behavior and Human Performance, • 1976).
Alliance for Decision Education • .

 

EXTRAS: • "
How to Make Your Own Luck • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2020).
 • "
How Do You Know When It’s Time to Quit? • " by 
No Stupid Questions • (2020).
 • "
The Upside of Quitting • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2011).

Annie Duke Thinks You Should Quit (Update)

Psychologist David Yeager thinks the conventional wisdom for how to motivate young people is all wrong. His model for helping kids cope with stress is required reading at Steve’s new high school.

 

SOURCES:David Yeager • , professor of psychology at the University of Texas at Austin.

 

RESOURCES:10 to 25: The Science of Motivating Young People: A Groundbreaking Approach to Leading the Next Generation―And Making Your Own Life Easier, • by David Yeager (2024).
 • "
A synergistic mindsets intervention protects adolescents from stress • ," by David Yeager, Christopher Bryan, James Gross, Jared Murray, Danielle Krettek Cobb, Pedro Santos, Hannah Gravelding, Meghann Johnson, and Jeremy Jamieson 
(Nature, • 2022).
 • "
Harnessing adolescent values to motivate healthier eating • ," by Christopher Bryan, David Yeager, Cintia Hinojosa, Aimee Chabot, Holly Bergen, Mari Kawamura, and Fred Steubing 
(Proceedings of the Natural Academy of Sciences, • 2016).
 • "
Breaking the Cycle of Mistrust: Wise Interventions to Provide Critical Feedback Across the Racial Divide • ," by David Yeager, Julio Garcia, Patti Brzustoski, William Hessert, Valeria Purdie-Vaughns, Nancy Apfel, Allison Master, and Matthew Williams 
(Journal of Experimental Psychology, • 2014).
 • "
The Influence of the National truth Campaign on Smoking Initiation • ," by Matthew Farrelly, James Nonnemaker, Kevin Davis, Altijani Hussin 
(American Journal of Preventive Medicine, • 2009).
 • "
Tobacco is Whacko Commercial • ," (2002).
 • "
Florida Tobacco Pilot Program: Thanking Customers • ," (2000).
 • "
Think, Don't Smoke PSA Commercial • ," (1999).
 • "
The Mentor’s Dilemma: Providing Critical Feedback Across the Racial Divide • ," by Geoffrey Cohen, Claude Steele, and Lee Ross 
(Personal and Social Psychology Bulletin, • 1999).

 

EXTRAS: • "
The Suit, Savile Row, and Smartly Dressed Men • ," by 
The Rest is History • (2024).

160. How to Help Kids Succeed

Steve is on a mission to reform math education, and Sarah Hart is ready to join the cause. In her return visit to the show, Sarah explains how patterns are everywhere, constraints make us more creative, and literature is surprisingly mathematical.

104. The Joy of Math With Sarah Hart

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