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NHPR

Outside/In: Where curiosity and the natural world collide.

Look around, and you’ll find everything is connected to the natural world. At Outside/In, we explore that idea with boundless curiosity. We report from disaster zones, pickleball courts, and dog sled kennels, and talk about policy, pop culture, science, and everything in between. From the backcountry to your backyard, we tell stories that expand the boundaries of environmental journalism. 

Outside/In is a production of NHPR. Learn more at outsideinradio.org

Outside/In

Albuquerque and the Rio Grande go hand in hand. The river cuts right through town, which means if you leave your office at closing time, you could have your feet in the water before 6. 

But, not this past summer. This August, along the river’s middle section, more than a hundred miles ran dry. What scientists have warned about for decades – the gradual aridification of the desert Southwest – finally arrived in Albuquerque. 

So, what was it like for the people who flocked to the river daily? Our producer Marina Henke went to Albuquerque to hear from them directly.

Featuring Laura Paskus, David Gutzler, Matt Springer, Kim Eichorst and Alida Davila.

Produced by Marina Henke. For full credits and transcript, visit outsideinradio.org 

CONNECT WITH US

Outside/In is made possible with listener support. ⁠Click here⁠ to join our Patreon and get ad-free episodes of the podcast. 

To share your questions and feedback with Outside/In, leave a voicemail on our listener hotline, 1-844-GO-OTTER, or email outsidein@nhpr.org. We answer questions about nature, climate change, sustainability, humans and evolution, and more. No question is too serious or too silly. 

Follow Outside/In on ⁠Instagram⁠, ⁠TikTok⁠, or join our private ⁠discussion group on Facebook⁠.

ADDITIONAL MATERIALS 

Laura Paskus wrote a whole book about climate change in New Mexico. It’s called ⁠At the Precipice⁠. ⁠You can also find her work on Substack. 

You can find out more about the Bosque Ecosystem Monitoring Program (BEMP) ⁠here⁠.
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A dry river runs through it

You might associate it with the foil that wraps leftover pizza and the shiny craft beer cans sold in breweries, but aluminum is literally everywhere. Scoop up a handful of soil or gravel anywhere on Earth and you’ll find atoms of bonded aluminum hidden inside.

But even before it was used in everything from airplanes to deodorant, the trade of aluminum minerals helped color the world, finance the Vatican, and led to the mass collection of human urine.

In this installment of “The Element of Surprise” — a series all about the hidden histories behind the periodic table’s most unassuming atoms, isotopes, and molecules — we’re talking about aluminum.

This episode was first published in 2024.

Featuring Saleem Ali.

Produced by Taylor Quimby. For full credits and transcript, visit outsideinradio.org 

CONNECT WITH US 

Outside/In is made possible with listener support. Click here to join our Patreon and get ad-free episodes of the podcast. 

To share your questions and feedback with Outside/In, leave a voicemail on our listener hotline, 1-844-GO-OTTER, or email outsidein@nhpr.org. We answer questions about nature, climate change, sustainability, humans and evolution, and more. No question is too serious or too silly. 

Follow Outside/In on Instagram, TikTok, or join our private discussion group on Facebook.
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Foiled! Napoleon's cutlery and the Aluminati

Noah Wilson-Rich has made it his mission to save the bees — from colony collapse disorder, loss of habitat, and disease. He’s doing this not just as a scientist, but also as an entrepreneur.

But is that a good thing?

And what happens when you think you know the answer to a solution, only to realize that you got it wrong? “The ‘save the bees’ movement is canceled,” he says. But what should we do in its place?

Featuring Noah Wilson-Rich, and Lauren Ponisio.

Produced by Felix Poon. For full credits and transcript, visit outsideinradio.org.

Cover image credit: Corner Shop Communications for The Biodiversity Lab.
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Did #savethebees get it wrong?

When an Outside/In listener asked the team to weigh in on a debate between him and his wife, perhaps we should have hesitated. But it was too good to resist.

“We have eighteen-year old twin boys, and sometimes they leave pizza out on the counter. She's convinced it's bad for your health — and I don't think so! Is pizza left overnight on the counter bad for you?” Anthony asked. 

For some members of the team, the answer was vindicating. For others, it was unmooring. 

Beyond settling this marital debate, in this Outside/Inbox roundup, the team offers our insights on animal perception of earthquakes, the apple supply chain, and finally answers a personal question that a surprising number of you have posed. 

Featuring Don Schaffner, Martin Wikelski, and Thiago Campbell. Thanks to Anthony, Carolyn, Mande, and Charles for their questions.

We want your questions on food safety! You might hear them on the show. Send them to outsidein@nhpr.org or leave a voicemail at 1-844-GO-OTTER.

For full credits and transcript, visit outsideinradio.org.
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Cosmic earthquake pizza

When evolutionary biologist Vincent Lynch heard the news that a $10 billion biotech company had brought the once extinct dire wolf back to life, he called foul. He took to the media to argue that these overhyped headlines threatened public trust in science. 

And that's when things started to get weird. 

In a story that feels like it came right out of Jurassic Park, we look into the murky world of "dark PR" and discover what happens when the principle of scientific discourse challenges the power of corporate science.

Featuring Howard Wolinsky, Vincent Lynch and Nic Rawlence

Produced by Nate Hegyi. For full credits and transcript, visit outsideinradio.org.

SUPPORT

Outside/In is made possible with listener support. ⁠Click here⁠ to join our Patreon and get ad-free episodes of the podcast. 

Follow Outside/In on ⁠Instagram⁠, ⁠TikTok⁠, or join our private ⁠discussion group on Facebook⁠.

ADDITIONAL MATERIALS

You can read Howard’s entire investigation over at EMBO Reports. 

Check out this example of one of the critical stories about Vincent. 

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Scientists spoke up against a de-extinction company. Then the smears began.

Growing up, Kiese Laymon thought of himself as a city kid. But he spent his childhood with a foot in two worlds: his mom’s house in the capital city of Jackson, Mississippi and his grandma’s house in a rural country town.

It wasn’t until Kiese left Mississippi that he came to understand that this question of city versus country actually meant a lot more. It carries a lot of baggage: the tensions between north and south, tectonic historical forces, and the contradictions of life in Mississippi.

In this episode, originally published in 2025, our producer Justine Paradis sits down with writer Kiese Laymon for a conversation on this question of country versus city, what that has to do with the history of Black life in this country, and the story of Kiese’s first children’s picture book, his latest in a lifelong exploration of a complicated love of Mississippi.

Featuring Kiese Laymon.

Produced by Justine Paradis. For full credits and transcript, visit outsideinradio.org.

SUPPORT

Outside/In is made possible with listener support. Click here to join our Patreon and get ad-free episodes of the podcast. 

Follow Outside/In on Instagram, TikTok, or join our private discussion group on Facebook.

ADDITIONAL MATERIALS

Kiese Laymon’s first children’s book, City Summer, Country Summer. 

If you’d like to read more by Kiese, we recommend “Da Art of Storytellin’ (A Prequel)”, his essay about Outkast, his grandmother, and stank. (Oxford American)

Kiese adapted City Summer, Country Summer from this 2020 prose-poem essay. (New York Times)

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City Summer, Country Summer

Dean Russell had just wrapped several reporting projects on climate change, mental health, and COVID. “My world was just so serious,” he said. That’s when his boss approached Dean with an idea. What if they made a fiction podcast about climate change? 

At first Dean wasn’t sold, but a few years later he’s become a full believer, and is the co-creator of WBUR’s The Midnight Rebellion, a choose-your-own-adventure podcast set in a futuristic climate-ravaged Boston. 

This week we’re sharing the first episode of the series. But we also hear from Dean directly about what it was like to tackle such a different kind of storytelling and why he thinks embracing a format borrowed from a hit book-genre of the nineties is so apt for exploring climate action. 

Featuring Dean Russell, and the cast of The Midnight Rebellion.

To hear the rest of the series, subscribe to The Midnight Rebellion wherever you get your podcasts.

Interview portion produced by Taylor Quimby. The Midnight Rebellion is produced by Dean Russell. For full credits and transcript, visit outsideinradio.org. 
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If climate change were a choose-your-own-adventure story

Producer Felix Poon goes on a field trip to the headquarters of Consumer Reports, where they test snow blowers on wet sawdust, drop bicycle helmets on anvils, and cover space heaters in towels to see how long it takes them to catch fire. 

How do they come up with this stuff? And, in a world of rampant consumerism, can Consumer Reports really be a force for good?

Featuring Barrie Rosen, Paul Hope, Chris Regan, Scott Collum, Matt Schimmenti, Indu Sunkara, Paolo Fu, Sana Mujahid, Joan Muratore, and Phil Radford.

Produced by Felix Poon. For full credits and transcript, visit outsideinradio.org.

SUPPORT

Outside/In is made possible with listener support. Click here to join our Patreon and get ad-free episodes of the podcast. 

Follow Outside/In on Instagram, TikTok, or join our private discussion group on Facebook.

ADDITIONAL MATERIALS 

In Consumer Reports’ very first issue were investigations into the difference between Grade A versus Grade B milk (there was none) and the practice of “slack-fill,” when cereal companies put more air than cereal in their cereal boxes.

Learn more about some of the topics referenced throughout the episode:

 Gas vs. Battery Lawn Mower: Which Is Better?

 Battery Platform Buying Guide

 Reducing the Risk of Arsenic in Rice

 Do you have the right to repair?

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The Willy Wonka factory of product testing

At the height of summer, when so many of us are grabbing picnic blankets, hitting the beach, and embracing an al fresco lifestyle, a tale of two outdoor events gone spectacularly wrong. 

Featuring Anika Krause, Samuel Edward-Cook, Eloise Barker, Simon Vargas, and Stephen Deng.

Produced by Marina Henke. For full credits and transcript, visit outsideinradio.org 

SUPPORT 

Outside/In is made possible with listener support. Click here to join our Patreon and get ad-free episodes of the podcast. 

Follow Outside/In on Instagram, TikTok, or join our private discussion group on Facebook.

ADDITIONAL MATERIALS 

You can watch the 2014 production of Titus Andronicus on the Globe’s website. As discussed, it’s incredibly bloody. 
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Fiasco al fresco

For over ten years, biologist Mark Higley has been stalking the forests of the Hoopa Valley Reservation with a shotgun. His mission? To save the endangered northern spotted owl. How? By shooting the more aggressive barred owl, which has spread from eastern forests into the Pacific Northwest.

In 2024, the federal government made a plan to scale these efforts by killing hundreds of thousands of barred owls across multiple states. Today, despite lawsuits and opposition, that plan is just beginning to ramp up. 

But can it really save the northern spotted owl? And is the barred owl really “invasive”… or just expanding its range? In this episode, Nate Hegyi dons a headlamp and heads into the forest with Mark Higley to catch a glimpse of these two rivals, and find out what it takes to kill these charismatic raptors, night after night, in the name of conservation.

This episode was first published in 2024. 

Featuring Mark Higley, Tom Wheeler, and Wayne Pacelle. 

SUPPORT

Outside/In is made possible with listener support. Click here to join our Patreon and get ad-free episodes of the podcast. 

Follow Outside/In on Instagram, TikTok, or join our private discussion group on Facebook.

ADDITIONAL MATERIALS 

The federal government’s barred owl management plan is very long but they have a helpful list of frequently asked questions.

Check out some beautiful photos of Mark Higley’s work in this Audubon magazine story from a few years ago. 

Curious about the timber wars? Oregon Public Broadcasting has an excellent podcast miniseries you should listen to. 

Animal rights groups have sued to stop the plan from moving forward; in the meantime, People Magazine has reported that culling of barred owls is ramping up in the Yakama Indian Reservation.
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Night Owls

When composer and traveling musician Ben Cosgrove was just 7 years old, he wrote a song called “Waves”. Since then, he’s made a career out of music inspired by landscape, place, and wilderness.

But if an artist has an environmental brand... do they also represent an environmental ethic?

Over the years, Ben began to wrestle with what his music was really saying about the natural world.

Subscribe to our newsletter.

Read “The Trouble with Wilderness” by William Cronon.

More on Ben Cosgrove’s new album, also called “The Trouble with Wilderness”.

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The Trouble With Music About Wilderness

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