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New York Times Opinion

The first draft of our future. Mapping the new world order through interviews and conversations. Every Thursday, from New York Times Opinion.

Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Matter of Opinion

Christopher Rufo brought the term "critical race theory" into mainstream conversation. Now, the anti-DEI activist is bringing his critiques of education to the White House. In this episode, Ross explores Rufo's mission to make universities feel "existential terror."

Editors’ note: This episode originally aired on the “Matter of Opinion” podcast on Mar. 7, 2025.

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) 

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com.

Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

The Anti-D.E.I. Crusader Who Wants to Dismantle the Department of Education

There’s a saying that comes to mind these days: May you live in interesting times. It’s understood to be a curse, even though it sounds like a blessing.

“Interesting Times With Ross Douthat” is a new weekly podcast from New York Times Opinion. Every Thursday, he will map the new world order through interviews and conversations. Answering questions like: What does our new political era really look like? What is the future of democracy around the world, with American empire in retreat? What happens to movies and books — all of culture — in our digital and A.I.-dominated age?

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com.

Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Introducing ‘Interesting Times’

In this conversation, Ross talks to Steve Bannon, the chief strategist from Donald Trump’s first term and part of the original MAGA movement. Despite his clashes with new factions emerging in the Republican Party, Bannon argues that Trump is still central to advancing a populist agenda.

Editors’ note: This episode originally aired on the “Matter of Opinion” podcast on Jan. 31, 2025.

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) 

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com.

Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Steve Bannon on ‘Broligarchs’ vs. Populism

The tech investor Marc Andreessen and his fellow Silicon Valley giant Elon Musk weren’t always the Donald Trump supporters they are today. In this episode, Ross asks Andreessen, a founder of the venture capital firm Andreessen Horowitz, about what led to Silicon Valley’s rightward shift and the new agenda of the tech-right faction. 

Editors’ note: This episode originally aired on the “Matter of Opinion” podcast on Jan. 17, 2025.

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) 

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com.

Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

How Democrats Drove Silicon Valley Into Trump’s Arms

Is the short-term economic pain of President Trump’s unpredictable approach to tariffs a reasonable price to pay for a more resilient America? Mr. Trump appears to think so, and so does Oren Cass — sort of. On the first episode of “Interesting Times,” the founder and chief economist of the think tank American Compass joins Ross Douthat to discuss and debate the Trump administration’s drastic trade war.

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) 

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com.

Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

This Instability May Be Worth It. Here's Why.

President Trump may forever reshape the boundaries of executive power. This week on “Interesting Times,” Ross and Jack Goldsmith, who was the head of the White House’s Office of Legal Counsel under President George W. Bush, discuss which cases are most likely to win in the courts and permanently expand the executive branch — for better or worse.

 • 00:02:03 Donald Trump’s “moonshot on executive power”
 • 00:04:16 What has surprised Goldsmith the most
 • 00:06:57 Are we in a constitutional crisis?
 • 00:08:59 Alien Enemies Act
 • 00:14:02 The case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia
 • 00:25:23 Godel’s loophole and Supreme Court enforcement
 • 30:10 Trump’s firings of federal employees and restructuring of U.S.A.I.D.
 • 36:11 Trump’s power over congressionally appropriated funding
 • 41:29 Obama v. Trump’s discretion on enforcing laws passed by Congress
 • 43:03 The TikTok case
 • 45:46 Lawsuit over Trump’s tariffs
 • 51:57 How the Supreme Court (maybe) thinks about picking its battles
 • 54:24 Worst case scenarios
 • 56:59 What the Supreme Court can do if the Trump administration does not comply
 • 01:01:32 What a Trump executive power revolution could look like in 2028 and beyond
 • 01:04:39 If Democrats win in 2028, what happens?

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) 

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com.

Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

What if There’s No Way to Stop Trump’s Approach to Power?

On this episode of “Interesting Times,” Ross Douthat is joined by the Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest and an editor of America Magazine, to reflect on the legacy of Pope Francis and the challenges facing the next papacy.

 • 02:20 The First Jesuit Pope
 • 05:23 Google Translate and Exchanging Emails 
 • 06:05 The Visual Element of Francis’s Legacy
 • 07:48 The Concrete Changes Made
 • 16:19 Christian Sexual Ethics
 • 25:22 The Church in the Modern World
 • 27:14 What Kind of Leader Will the Next Pope Be?
 • 31:57 The Latin Mass Controversy
 • 34:54 What Draws People to Christianity?
 • 39:21 What Holds Such a Diverse Church Together?
 • 43:09 The Influence of the Pope and the Hierarchy 
 • 46:41 A Renewed Interest in Religion 
 • 48:30 The Church as a Field Hospital 
 • 49:13 What Father Martin Hopes to See in the Next Pope 
 • 49:59 Where Should the New Pope Go? 
 • 52:27 Who Will Be the Next Pope?

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) 

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com.

Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?

The Trump era is ushering in a new age of right wing counterculture, one defined by masculinity and transgression. In this episode of Interesting Times, Ross speaks with Jonathan Keeperman, the founder of Passage Press, about the influence of an edgy, reactionary, right-wing “vibe shift” on American politics and culture.

 • 2:09 - Jonathan Keeperman’s Lomez days
 • 5:25 - 2014: An inflection point in American culture?
 • 7:40 - The emergence of a “conservative counter elite”
 • 9:41 - The creation of a right wing counterweight to the dominant left
 • 12:32 - What makes something “conservative art”?
 • 15:18 - Are David Lynch films right wing art? 
Is Girls? • 18:11 - Is there such a thing as good left wing art?
 • 19:32 - Right wing counterculture’s obsession with “vitalism”
 • 22:56 - Longhouse culture: Is the “over feminization” of society making America weaker?
 • 27:55 - Is the longhouse argument just a “long male whine”?
 • 30:41 - Is right wing counterculture anti-Christian?
 • 35:48 - Trump as mythic hero
 • 43:31 - What is the function of racism in right wing counterculture?
 • 53:50 - Are racist means transgressive or just racist?
 • 1:05:43 - Will the rightward vibe shift show up in pop culture?
 • 1:07:37 - Why every high school senior should read “Moby Dick” and watch “No Country for Old Men”

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) 

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com.

Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

The New Culture of the Right: Vital, Masculine and Intentionally Offensive

Democrats are stumbling — badly. While the Trump administration redefines the limits of executive overreach, the Democratic party remains at odds over how to — even whether to — respond. But Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut has a plan for beating Republicans in 2026, and it involves taking a cue from President Trump. He shares it with Ross Douthat on this episode of Interesting Times. 

 • 02:07 - The First 100 Days for Trump and the Democrats
 • 04:06 - The Threat to Democracy Wasn’t Enough Then or Now.
 • 06:49 - How Dems Fight Trump
 • 13:41 - Where Chris Murphy Can Agree With the Populist Right
 • 16:38 - Is Connecticut a Model of What is Wrong with Democrats?
 • 25:54 - The Spiritual Crisis in American Life
 • 27:56 - The Problem with Big Tech
 • 33:45 - How Do Democrats (And Murphy) Talk About Religion? Should They?
 • 45:35 - Is Trump Really Running An Oligarchy?
 • 50:34 - Does the Democratic Party Need a Bigger Tent?
 • 53:54 - A Need for a National Consensus on Immigration
 • 57:09 - “A Democracy Dies Without a High Stakes Confrontation”

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) 

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com.

Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

The Democratic Senator Taking Cues From Trumpism

Is artificial intelligence about to take your job? According to Daniel Kokotajlo, the executive director of the A.I. Futures Project, that should be the least of your worries. Kokotajlo was once a researcher for OpenAI, but left after losing confidence in the company’s commitment to A.I. safety. This week, he joins Ross to talk about “AI 2027,” a series of predictions and warnings about the risks A.I. poses to humanity in the coming years, from radically transforming the economy to developing armies of robots.

 • 03:59 - What effect could AI have on jobs?
 • 06:45 - But wait, how does this make society richer?
 • 10:08 - Robot plumbers and electricians
 • 14:53 - The geopolitical stakes
 • 18:58 - AI’s honesty problem
 • 22:43 - The fork in the road
 • 27:55 - The best case scenario
 • 29:38 - The power structure in an AI-dominated world
 • 32:32 - What AI leaders think about this power structure
 • 38:30 - AI's hallucinations and limitations
 • 43:45 - Theories of AI consciousness
 • 47:05 - Is AI consciousness inevitable?
 • 50:59 - Humanity in an AI-dominated world

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) 

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com.

Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

An Interview With the Herald of the Apocalypse

Happy Independence Day! We’ll be back next week with a new episode, but today we’re sharing the episode that started us on the path to “Interesting Times.” Ross Douthat talks to Reihan Salam, the president of the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research. Together they wrote the book “Grand New Party: How Republicans Can Win the Working Class and Save the American Dream.”

They review their George W. Bush-era prescriptions for the Republican Party to reclaim the working-class vote and the ways they were right (and wrong) about building a new Republican majority.

 • 03:47 George W. Bush era
 • 12:06 Rise and fall of the Tea Party
 • 18:19 Trump’s 2016 “blood and guts” message
 • 28:11 Trump’s effect on the right and left
 • 35:48 Trump’s first term economic agenda
 • 39:30 Elon Musk vs JD Vance
 • 46:50 Imagining an activist, conservative government

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.)

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com.

Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Why Trump’s Blood-and-Guts Strategy Worked

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