Dave during the chat with Dan In this episode Dan Palmer from Making Permaculture Stronger enjoys another high-energy, cut to the chase dialogue with Dave Jacke from Edible Forest Gardens.

The first episode/instalment can be found here.

This second instalment of an energy-rich conversation that is far from done includes:

Dan sharing his recent feeling that in framing permaculture design processes using linear-sequence-implying flow charts a (kind of big) mistake is being made Dave putting flow charts and other things in a successional (but non-linear!) framing where they have their role in the learning journey Dave sharing his cutting edge, hot-off-the-press, so far unwritten about approach to framing design processes as ecosystems The relation between what he calls the four ecosystem ps:

properties principles patterns processes

Why Dave avoids using the name permaculture Much, much else!

Dave Jacke’s work has been referenced many times in previous posts, and was the sole focus of this one and this one.

Oh yes, the Ludwig Wittgenstein quote Dan mentions was: One thinks that one is tracing the outline of the thing's nature over and over again, and one is merely tracing around the frame through which we look at (Philosophical Investigations) and the quote Dave shared was:

Ecological communities are not as tightly linked as organisms, but neither are they simply collections of individuals. Rather, the community is a unique form of biological system in which the individuality of the parts (i.e., species and individuals) acts paradoxically to bind the system together. —DAVID PERRY, Forest Ecosystems

Finally, you can organise yourself a copy of David Holmgren's amazing new book Retrosuburbia (which Dan quotes from at the start) right here.

We really hope you enjoy the episode, and please do leave a comment sharing any feedback or reflections below…

Dan during the chat with Dave