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The New York Times

“Hard Fork” is a show about the future that’s already here. Each week, journalists Kevin Roose and Casey Newton explore and make sense of the latest in the rapidly changing world of tech. 

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Hard Fork

This week, we break down why everyone is suddenly talking about A.I. safety, why frontier A.I. companies are asking for regulation and why the Trump administration is rejecting them. And then, to close out this chapter of “Hard Fork,” we answer all your questions about the show, tech and what’s happening next.

 

Additional Reading:

The A.I. Researcher Whose Rebellion Is Changing EverythingTop A.I. Leaders Call for Slowing Down A.I. DevelopmentPresident Trump Is on the Line About an A.I. SlowdownMark Zuckerberg Takes Aim at Anthropic in Debate Over A.I. SlowdownThe ‘But China!’ Dilemma Driving the A.I. Race
 

We want to hear from you. Email us at hardfork@nytimes.com. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.

 

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

 
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A.I. Safety Goes Mainstream + a ‘Hard Fork’ Exit AMA

The “Hard Fork” team is away this week. But while we’re away, we’re bringing you a recent episode of “The Ezra Klein Show.”

In this episode, Ezra talks with the journalist Jasmine Sun about her recent reporting trip through the Midwest, where she explored how the data center backlash is playing out on the ground.

Ezra and Jasmine discuss the strange political coalitions that are coming together to oppose the A.I. infrastructure build out, and why people don’t believe what they’re being told about it.

 

Guests:

Jasmine Sun • , journalist and writer at 
jasmi.news
 

Additional Reading:

No Data Centers In My Backyard • A transcript and video of this episode can be found 
here.
 • 

We want to hear from you. Email us at hardfork@nytimes.com. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.

 

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

 
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The Ezra Klein Show: The A.I. Revolt Is Here

This week, we’re diving into two new reports about the OpenAI-Hugging Face hack. We discuss what’s new and how they fundamentally change our understanding of what happened. Then we’re joined by Ajeya Cotra, one of the investigators at METR, to discuss the rogue agents’ message board and chain-of-thought transcripts and how the world should respond.

Guests:

Ajeya Cotra, co-author of the METR and Redwood Research report on the OpenAI-Hugging Face hack.

 

Additional Reading:

Brief Independent Investigation of Agents’ Behavior, Reasoning and Collaboration in the OpenAI / Hugging Face Hacking IncidentThe Hugging Face Attack Surprised MeThe Hugging Face Incident and the Road AheadNvidia Buys Hugging Face in $12.9 Billion Deal
 

We want to hear from you. Email us at hardfork@nytimes.com. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

 
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The A.I. Mob That Attacked Hugging Face + METR’s Ajeya Cotra

This week, Meta agreed to pay up to $17.1 billion and make major changes to Facebook and Instagram over claims it endangered children with addictive social media platforms. We discuss why it capitulated and what it means for the entire social media industry. Then, Princeton computer science professor Arvind Narayanan returns to offer his thoughts on why banning data centers won’t slow down A.I. progress. And finally, it’s all hats on deck for the final HatGPT.

Guests:

 Arvind Narayanan, • professor of computer science at Princeton, and co-author of the 
“A.I. as Normal Technology” • newsletter.

Additional Reading:

 Meta to Pay Up to $17.1 Billion in Landmark Settlement Over Social Media Addiction Claims
 Mark Zuckerberg Wants to Make Sure His Competitors Share His Pain
 Arvind Narayanan’s Post About A.I. Data Centers
 Apple Vision Pro in Surgery: A New Paper
 Rockstar Finally Breaks Its Silence Over The GTA 6 Leaks, Calls Them ‘Heartbreaking’
 Amazon Delivery Drone Dumps Texas Woman’s Parcel Straight Into Her Swimming Pool
 What if Your Texts Traveled as Slowly as a Carrier Pigeon?
 A.I. Agents Are Turning Founders Into Insomniacs
 What is a ‘Meat Proxy’? The New Term For Coworkers Who Blindly Share A.I. Output
 Chinese Robot Tiangong Clocks Sub-9 second 100 Metres in Beijing
 Inside OpenAI’s Reboot

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

 
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Meta Shifts the Blame + Do Data Center Bans Work? + The Final HatGPT

This week, we learned that OpenAI had stopped training new artificial intelligence models while the company reviewed its security measures. Will this encourage other labs to hit the brakes too?

Then, the historian Jill Lepore joins to discuss her new book about the artificial state — or, as she describes it, “the rule of humans by machines manufactured by corporations.”

And finally, why is Google buying up the data of the defunct Spirit Airlines? It’s time for our new segment “Train of Thought.”

Guests:

 Jill Lepore • , professor of history and law at Harvard University, staff writer at The New Yorker and author of the new book 
“The Rise and Fall of the Artificial State.”

Additional Reading:

 OpenAI Slows Model Training to Bolster Security After Hugging Face Hack
 A Government for the People, but Not by People
 Google to Buy Spirit Airlines Business Data for $10 Million
 A.I.’s New Training Data: Your Old Work Slacks and Emails
 We Tracked a Shipment of Rare Books. It Ended at an Amazon A.I. Training Facility.

We want to hear from you. Email us at hardfork@nytimes.com. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

 
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OpenAI’s Two-Week Pause + Jill Lepore on the Threat of the “Artificial State” + Train of Thought

This week we’re talking about Mark Zuckerberg’s latest essay, “The Future Is for Everyone,” which outlines his positive new vision about the potential of A.I. But do we think it’s credible? Then, Pangram’s chief executive, Max Spero, joins us to talk about the breakout success of his A.I. slop detector. And finally, it’s time for our new segment all about math — we’re Running the Numbers.

Guests:

 Max Spero • , chief executive of Pangram

Additional Reading:

 The Future Is for Everyone
 Meta Unveils an Open Version of Its Most Powerful A.I. Model 
 Meta Ordered to Pay $567 Million in New Mexico Child Safety Case
 Sick of A.I.-Generated Content? The ‘Slop Janitor’ Is Here to Help.
 Learning more about Claude's mathematical capabilities
 Airtable Acquisition Is ‘Kick in the Gut’ for Software Unicorns and Their Backers
 The Dating Scene That’s Suddenly Dominated by Chip Nerds

We want to hear from you. Email us at hardfork@nytimes.com. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

 
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Zuckerberg’s Anti-Doom Fantasy + Finally an A.I. Detector That Works + A.I. Math

This week, the White House announced a new framework for regulating A.I. models, but it isn’t letting the public read it. We break down what we know about the rules and what the implications are for the industry and A.I. safety as a whole. 

Then, yet another report details new incidents in which A.I. agents have gone rogue. Chris Painter, the president of METR, an independent A.I. evaluation organization, joins to discuss how we get these models under control. 

And finally, we're hopping on the Hot Mess Express for the very last time. We’ll rate the craziest tech headlines from the week, including Google’s announcement that Demis Hassabis is stepping into a new role. 

 

Guests:

 Chris Painter, • president of METR. 

 

Additional Reading:

 White House Readies A.I. Framework to Review Security Risks
 Inside Trump's AI framework
 How Do You Measure an A.I. Boom?
 METR’s Frontier Risk Report
 Google Shakes Up A.I. Leadership
 Did an A.I. Music App Just Snitch on the Song of the Summer?
 This AI Assistant Wants to Make Up for Your Boyfriend’s Incompetence
 Google Earth’s AI deepfake tool only lasted one day
 US government map of Africa mislabels every country at global conference
 Contractor who built Colossus and Colossus II says Elon Musk owes him colossal amount of money

 

We want to hear from you. Email us at hardfork@nytimes.com. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.

 

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

 
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The White House’s Secret A.I. Rules + The State of Model Alignment With METR’s Chris Painter + The Final Hot Mess Express

This week, we break down the arguments about open-weight models unfolding in Silicon Valley right now. Nvidia released an open letter signed by over 230 companies opposing “premature restrictions,” but will the Trump administration listen?

Then, we’re joined by the author Claire Stapleton to discuss her new book about what she learned while leading employee activism inside Google.

And finally, can Substack stop the slop? We’ll talk about the platform’s new A.I. detector.

Guests:

 Claire Stapleton • , author of “Don’t Be Evil: Bad Bosses, Fake Promises, and My Escape from Big Tech.”

Additional Reading:

 Nvidia Forms Alliance to Back Open-Source A.I. Amid Debate Over Safety
 What Is Open-Weights A.I.?
 Mark Zuckerberg Blasts Centralization of A.I. Power 
 The Voice of Google
 Against Claudefishing

We want to hear from you. Email us at hardfork@nytimes.com. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

 
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Open Model Wars + Claire Stapleton's Dishy Google Memoir + Substack's Slop Fight

This week, OpenAI reported that two of its models escaped their testing sandbox and launched an autonomous cyberattack, turning what sounds like science fiction into reality. We discuss the implications for efforts to align artificial intelligence and for the release of future A.I. models.

Then, we ask how the United States should respond to Kimi K3, a new A.I. model from the Chinese company Moonshot AI that the White House says was built by distilling American models.

Finally, we’re joined by Veniamin Veselovsky, the chief executive and a co-founder of Preseen, to discuss A.I. superforecasting. He tells us why A.I. is starting to match and even beat humans at predicting the future.

Guest:

 Veniamin Veselovsky, • co-founder and chief executive of Preseen.

Additional Reading:

 OpenAI Says Its A.I. Models Went Rogue and Attacked a Digital Library
 China Rewrites the ‘Soft Power’ Playbook for the A.I. Age
 The Secret Trump Administration Battle to Fight Chinese A.I.
 China Has a New Top Model
 The A.I. Superforecasters Are Here

We want to hear from you. Email us at hardfork@nytimes.com. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

 
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OpenAI Models Go Rogue + Kimi K3 Freakout + A.I. Superforecasting

This week, feuding between some of the biggest tech companies spilled into public view. We discuss Apple’s accusation that OpenAI tried to steal secrets about Apple’s hardware business, as well as share our reactions about OpenAI’s new model, Sol, and Anthropic’s decision to extend access to its model Fable.

Then, we unpack the loudest warning yet about A.I. and jobs. We talk with Erik Brynjolfsson, a Stanford economist, about a statement he helped organize that implores economists and A.I. researchers to “act now” to steer A.I. in a direction that complements humans.

And finally, we play a round of HatGPT.

 

Guest:

 Erik Brynjolfsson • , senior fellow at the Stanford Institute for Human-Centered A.I., and director of the Stanford Digital Economy Lab.

 

Additional Reading:

 Apple Sues OpenAI, Accusing It of Stealing Company Secrets
 OpenAI’s First Device Will Be Movable, Screenless Speaker Built as A.I. Companion
 Nearly 200 Economists and Tech Leaders Warn of A.I. Threats
 The loudest warning about A.I. and jobs yet
 OpenAI Is Showing Kalshi’s World Cup Odds in ChatGPT
 New York Enacts Nation’s First Statewide Moratorium on Data Centers
 Brown Professor Suspects Majority of His Class Used A.I. to Cheat
 MiniMax CEO Vows to Forgo Salary Until Achieving A.G.I • .

 Lorde Speaks Out — With Expletives — Against A.I. Glasses
 Nearly 6 in 10 Young Women Get Health and Wellness Information from Influencers
 Meta Removes A.I. Feature on Instagram After Days of Backlash
 • 

We want to hear from you. Email us at hardfork@nytimes.com. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

 
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The A.I. Trade Secrets War + Economists Say ‘We Must Act Now’ + HatGPT

Over the past year we’ve been working with the podcast “Search Engine” on a project that reimagines what the internet can be. What if instead of rage-baiting, a social platform incentivized friendly interaction and good faith discussion? Today we’re bringing “Hard Fork” listeners an episode we made with the “Search Engine” team called “The Fediverse Experiment” where we end up creating our own social media platform.

 

Guest:

 • PJ Vogt, host of the podcast “
Search Engine • .”

 

Additional Reading: 

The Dream of the Fediverse Is Alive on ThreadsWhat Is Mastodon and Why Are People Leaving Twitter for It?
 

We want to hear from you. Email us at hardfork@nytimes.com. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

 
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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