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Jason Pack

Are you fed up with the never ending crises in the news? Are you looking for Order amidst the Disorder? Listen to the Disorder Podcast as we offer forward thinking solutions to the biggest challenges of the day. We are living through an age of unrivaled disorder: an out-of-control Trump Administration, never ending scandals, escalating threats from China, Iran, and Russia, and the rapid march of destabilizing tech. The “good guys” - rules-based ordering centrists - are on the back foot, while neo-populist strongmen gain ground by fuelling more and more chaos. But there are ways out of this mess. Join us as we Order the Disorder. Each week, host Jason Pack, co-hosts Jane Kinnimont and Mark Lobel, world-leading experts, senior diplomats and cultural icons, present their solutions to problems like: why are centrists losing and populist strongmen winning? How do we save our democracies? How do we deal with threats from Disorderers like Iran and Russia? And how do we build multilateral coalitions that work, how can we regulate AI, defend Ukraine, and fight climate change? All in a world without American leadership? Disorder is the go-to podcast for anyone who wants intelligent, thoughtful solutions to the Disorder engulfing our mad mad mad mad world. To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit ⁠disordershow.com/club Website: https://disordershow.com/

Disorder

Twenty-five years after 9/11, did America respond to an attack on the Western Order by inadvertently helping to disorder that Order itself?

Jason is joined by Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Ben Hodges, former Commanding General of U.S. Army Europe, to look back at 9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan and the collapse of NATO allies trust in the USA—and forward to how Ukraine can win and the defence of Europe. Hodges argues that military power is only useful when attached to a clear strategic objective and Congressional and popular buy-in: a lesson America repeatedly forgot after 9/11. 

They then turn to Ukraine: drones, long-range strikes, manpower, democratic legitimacy and Europe's continuing failure to develop sufficient air and missile defence. In the Ordering the Disorder section, General Hodges argues that Europe should stop thinking about merely improving Ukraine's negotiating position and instead help it defeat Russia—while rebuilding the alliances and institutions that once magnified American power. 

Join the Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club to get Jason's response to the interview, including his own reflections on 9/11 and whether power without clear objectives, functioning alliances and an idea of the Order it is seeking to create can itself become an engine of Disorder.

SHOWNOTES LINKS

Democrats v Dictators with Ben Hodges on his personal background:

https://youtu.be/9eOKx6iVTx8?is=PJsO4AA9lfIk_5ru 

Ben Hodges — Association of the United States Army:

https://www.ausa.org/people/ben-hodges

NATO — Collective Defence and Article 5:

https://www.nato.int/en/what-we-do/introduction-to-nato/collective-defence-and-article-5

Disorder — NATO: A Model for Ordering the Disorder? with Jamie Shea, Kori Schake, Timothy Garton Ash and Charles Kupchan:

https://podfollow.com/disorder/episode/484e21562b7dcd1a1a1f570a09343fd68bf6e732/view

Join the Mega Orderers Club:

https://disordershow.com/club 

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Ep 208. General Ben Hodges: 25 years after 9/11 — can the West relearn strategy?

A great power battle is emerging between Russia, China and Washington… and Europe teeters on the edge of all three. Could this break up the union? And is the European reliance on America over?

To find out, Jason is joined by author and Director of the Moynihan Center of European Studies at Syracuse University, Glyn Morgan. His latest book The Rise and Fall of American Europe charts the rise and fall of the 80-year history of what he calls American Europe. 

Jason and Glyn discuss how this system emerged off the back of Roosevelt's plans to dismantle both fascism and British imperial power, why it delivered decades of European prosperity, and why that’s now under threat.

Plus: European complacency on defence, Macron's failed warnings, and - as they Order the Disorder - Glyn imagines a future where Europe works together for defense, with Britain’s role as a guardian of the Atlantic Sea. 

To get an extended version of the episode, join the Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club

Producer: Sam Cluley

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Shownotes:

Get The Rise and Fall of American Europe by Glyn Morgan

https://www.politybooks.com/bookdetail?book_slug=the-rise-and-fall-of-american-europe--9781509573202

For more on Glyn visit his Syracuse University faculty page

https://www.maxwell.syr.edu/directory/glyn-morgan

For more on our partnership with the New Books Network

https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder

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Ep 207. Is Europe's 80-Year Order Finally Collapsing?

This week, Jason is joined by one of his academic idols, Laura Spinney. Laura is a much-esteemed author of Pale Rider: The Spanish Flu of 1918 and How it Changed the World, and her incredible newer book Proto: How One Ancient Language Went Global.

PROTO tells the story of how modern Indo-European languages came into being North of the Black Sea and then traveled East—the length of the steppe, north of the Caucasus, then into the Silk Roads and the Hindu Kush—and West—from the Hungarian steppe into the forest lands of Western Europe. In this episode, Jason and Laura discuss the Yamnaya nomads who spread these languages throughout the world; the central role of Ukraine in pre-history and its centrality now and in the future as a pivot of human civilization; and as they Order the Disorder: they discuss the need for an institution to preserve global memory, so that we as humans can avoid making the same mistakes of the past.

To get the rest of the bonus content associated with this multi-part episode, i.e. a discussion about who are the Celts and Jason’s views on Proto and how ancient linguistic history can shed light on the demographic and climate change problems of today, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Get Proto: How One Ancient Language Went Global https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/proto-how-one-ancient-language-went-global-laura-spinney?variant=56326451724667 

Listen - Laura Spinney: rise of the proto-Indo-Europeans https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/laura-spinney-rise-of-the-proto-indo-europeans/id1542136715?i=1000708790296 

For more on Laura visit https://www.lauraspinney.com/ 

For more on our partnership with the New Books Network - https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder 

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Ep 206. The Ancient Linguistic Order with Laura Spinney

This week Jason is joined by old friend and former Disorder co-host Arthur Snell, former British diplomat, host of Behind the Lines, and author of Elemental: The New Geography of Climate Change and How We Survive It.

Jason and Arthur start with the seemingly never-ending Iran war. Has Trump’s threatened “economic D-Day” achieved anything? Has it really even been implemented? Jason argues that Iran could become America’s Suez moment: not another Vietnam, but an debacle exposing the limits of American power and its inability to Order the world without its allies.

They then turn to the U.S. midterms, whether the Democrats can retake Congress, and their continuing failure to articulate a coherent national message. And behind both American and British politics lurks another constraint: the bond market. With rising borrowing costs limiting what governments can actually do, could markets and independent institutions provide some of the feedback loops that politics increasingly lacks?

Next up is Andy Burnham’s back-to-school moment. Can he rebuild Britain’s relationship with Europe, stand up to Trump and make better use of Britain’s considerable geopolitical leverage? Jason proposes an “elbows up rule”: medium powers confronting Trump need to articulate clear red lines and stick to them rather than succumbing to appeasement.

Finally, Arthur draws on his book Elemental to explain how the devastating Nepal floods reveal a much bigger climate and geopolitical problem. Billions depend on water originating in the Himalayas and Tibetan Plateau, potentially intensifying tensions between China, India and Pakistan. Like Libya’s Derna disaster, it illustrates an Enduring Disorder: foreseeable risks that fragmented institutions repeatedly fail to prepare for.

To Order the Disorder, Arthur calls for rebuilding British soft power through refunding the BBC World Service, British Council and universities, while Jason proposes a clear Burnham Doctrine on Britain’s place in the world. And despite the climate crisis, Arthur offers some grounds for optimism: much of the technology needed for the energy transition already exists — the challenge is turning it into policies governments can actually deliver and then maintaining the will to implement them.

For Mega Orderers Club members, Jason and Arthur continue with a bonus discussion on the Liberal Democrats and their place in Britain’s rapidly changing political landscape. Join the club at disordershow.com/club to get that immediately.

SHOWNOTE LINKS:

Join the Mega Orderers Club and get the Arthur Snell intro to who are the Lib Dems, what are they doing, and what do they believe in:
https://www.disordershow.com/club

Arthur Snell’s Elemental
https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/arthur-snell/elemental/9781529097016

Arthur Snell’s Behind the Lines
https://shows.acast.com/behind-the-lines-with-arthur-snell

Arthur’s Not All Doom Substack
https://arthursnell.substack.com/

Join the Mega Orderers Club
https://www.disordershow.com/club

Disorder on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Ordering the Disorder on Substack
https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

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Ep 205. Arthur Snell Returns: Iran, Burnham, Bond Markets and Climate Disorder

In this episode, we return to Simon Sebag Montefiore’s tour de force, The Cauldron: The Making of the Modern Middle East. Jason and Sebag divide the continuation of their discussion into two parts: 1) An analysis of what makes the Middle East a ‘Cauldron’ and what has the region’s role in 20th and 21st century global history been as an exporter of disorder or importer and then processor of the global disorder happening around it; 2) Our attempt to order the disorder with a lightening round where I ask Sebag impossibly big questions: first about big themes on civilization, religion, and history and then about how to fix the Middle East. 

 

The crux of the episode is: What makes the Middle East unique as a region? Is it its geography, relation to religion, legacy of empires, connection to oil resources, or being the fulcrum where Asia, Europe, and Africa meet? Sebag thinks it is all of the above, Jason thinks it is its culture and lack of institutional legacy and public spiritedness.. he discussed this in the bonus bit for Mega Orderers.. They also delve into the role of Pakistan, America, Russia, and Britain in the Middle Eastern region and how part of the region’s uniqueness is how it sucks in other powers for ideological, religious, and oil reasons. 

 

 

To get the bonus content associated with this two-part episode, i.e. Jason views on the role of culture and institutions in making the Middle East a Cauldron, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club 

 

When you log in there after joining you will get Jason’s micro episode for members of the Mega-Orderers Club only on A CULTURAL CRITIQUE OF WHERE THE DISORDER of the Middle east COMES FROM—as he debate’s the establishment on the region’s uniquely dysfunctional culture and institutional legacies of greed of clan and faction and whether the Middle East is in fact unique or just like everywhere else when it comes to its a profound absence of public spiritedness. 

 

 

Producer: George McDonagh 

 

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 

 

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow 

 

Show Notes Links: 

To get the book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cauldron-Making-Modern-Middle-East/dp/1399634895/ 

 

As for what is happening with Iran and the economic D-Day: https://thehill.com/policy/international/6045556-iran-warns-middle-east-us-economic-war/ 

 

How the US and Middle East allies flipped the oil script on Iran: 

https://edition.cnn.com/2026/08/22/business/oil-strait-of-hormuz-iran 

 

To get the bonus content associated with part 2, i.e. the rule of culture and institutions in making the Middle East a Cauldron, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club 

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Ep 204. Part 2: The Making of the Modern Middle East with Simon Sebag Montefiore

This week, Jason is joined by esteemed British historian and author, Simon Sebag Montefiore, to discuss his latest book, The Cauldron: The Making of the Modern Middle East. Jason and Sebag’s discussion ranges over centuries of history and ping pongs back and forth on myriad topics. It tries to make the peripheral central by putting the non-Arab, non-Sunni groups at the centre of understanding the Modern Middle East.

They unpack how the Middle East became the Disorderly region we know today and where to frame current conflicts historically to understand certain deeper dynamics, especially as pertains to minorities and their ambitions for statehood and peoplehood. They focus a lot on WWI and the dynamics that emerged from it and shaped the history of the Kurds, Armenians, Turks, and fleeing Ionian Greeks. These were the dynamics of population transfer and ethnonationalism that destroyed the old Middle East of the Millet System. They try to avoid the overdone Israel/Palestine dynamics which occasionally shed more heat than light. With this framing in place, they look at what tragedies took us to the current pointless and self-defeating Iran war, and where we might go from here.

To get part 2 with bonus content, and hear it before anyone else, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

To get Simon’s book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cauldron-Making-Modern-Middle-East/dp/1399634895/ 

For more Disorder about the history of the Middle East, try:

What is Zionism and is it still relevant today? Israel’s Independence Day with Phil Rosenberg https://open.spotify.com/episode/3ug89R0zHLumkldJX5Cmo2

And Sir Vincent Fean The Case for Palestinian Statehood: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/listen/disorder/ep74-part2-the-case-for-palestinian-statehood 

And the Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/listen/disorder/ep36-part-i-former-armenian-president-sarkissian-on-armenian-genocide-remembrance-day

This episode is brought to you in partnership with the New Books Network, for more visit https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder 

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Ep 203. The Making of the Modern Middle East--Part 1 with Simon Sebag Montefiore

Welcome to ‘Out of Order’ with Mark Lobel. A new series, in partnership with Disorder.

Remarkable people, unguarded. Each month, Emmy nominated journalist Mark Lobel meets some of the world’s most interesting people to understand the moments that made them who they are; and where they see hope in our mad mad mad mad world when so much feels out of order.

In his most revealing interview yet, Charles Cumming, a master of modern spy fiction, opens up about his work, life and reveals his biggest regret, one that helped shape his spy novels.

The duo discuss Charles upbringing - and how being sent to a boarding school at a young age shaped his writing. They also chat divorce-- and how two divorces, that of Charles parents and later himself, still shapes his writing, and why spy novels can call out the crimes and immorality of people like Putin and Trump in different ways that politicians and political commentators.

For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club - use the promo code BACKGAMMON50 for 50% off a Mega Orderers membership. Limited time only. There is only one week left to redeem this offer.

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Get in touch with Mark here https://www.mark-lobel.com/ 

For more on Out of Order visit https://linktr.ee/outofordermarklobel 

ICARUS 17: A nailbiting new Lachlan Kite espionage thriller, from Sunday Times bestselling author Charles Cumming: Book 4 (BOX 88)
https://amzn.eu/d/06DAbiyU

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Ep 202. The spy who duped me - Charles Cumming reveals all

To celebrate Jason's 2nd place finish at the World Backgammon Championships, we're rerunning a classic episode of Disorder; centred around the game itself and the lessons it provides for the Mega Ordering community.

If you didn’t hear this when it came out in July, 2025, I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now.

We’ve heard about Putin bluffing. Abraham Lincoln was an accomplished poker player and Churchill dabbled at chess. But to our mind it is Backgammon that best reflects both politics and life decisions. It’s a game of skill, luck, reversals and socializing. So could world leaders use Backgammon to help them develop their empathy, strategic thinking, resilience, and make better decisions?

In this conversation, Jason Pack is joined by Marc Olsen – fellow Backgammon Grandmaster, former professional footballer, and the CEO and Founder of Backgammon Galaxy. Together they explore the multifaceted world of Backgammon. They unpack how it is a metaphor for life, decision-making, and the balance between order and disorder. 

They discuss Marc's journey from professional football to becoming the CEO of Backgammon Galaxy, the conformism of Scandinavian society, and how a rebellious nature led Marc to discover Austrian school economics. Plus: the emotional aspects of learning through games, the relevance of game theory in the Enduring Disorder, and the unique features of Backgammon that make it a rich learning experience. And as they Order they Disorder – how Backgammon can foster empathy and social skills, and the potential of Backgammon as a tool for cross-cultural connection, especially in the Middle Eastern region.

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow 

Show Notes Links:

The World Backgammon Championship Final featuring Jason Pack against Petko Kostadinov : The World Backgammon Championship Final 2026

For more on Backgammon Galaxy visit - https://www.backgammongalaxy.com/ 

To watch the 2024 World Backgammon Championship Final commentated by Marc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d7-ky1bROk 

For a very fun video produced by Marc and featuring Jason about the World Backgammon Championship: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TebkgCNS7OI 

For Marc on the Gentleman Scofflaw podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-gentleman-scofflaw-podcast/id1216891117?i=1000650103880 

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Ep 201. Rerun: Why Backgammon Can Help us Order the Disorder

Jason and Jane are back from their holidays – Jason celebrating making the Finals of the World Championships of Backgammon and winning the Silver Medal, and Jane reflecting on her time in Morocco. But soon as they discuss the state of the world, Disorder enters as they disagree agreeably about devolution in the UK. Plus: what can or is being done with the climate crisis, and what does Abdul El-Sayed’s win in America’s Democratic primary mean for the direction the party is taking and its hope for the midterms?

For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club - use the promo code BACKGAMMON50 for 50% off a Mega Orderers membership. Limited time only.

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For Jason’s reflections on Backgammon and Mega-Ordering and humility on losing: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iGehf_MAyuE 

For Valeria’s art: https://backgammonbeauty.com/

You can watch the final here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UruOwdoyu8&t=8414s

Or the more (pleasing from my perspective) semi final here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yptjF5waoZ8&t=12807s

Andy Burnham on How to Fail - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aRidqdh29w 

For more on Backgammon Galaxy visit - https://www.backgammongalaxy.com/

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Ep 200. Is more devolution in Britain the answer or a spreader of Disorder?

For summer recess, we return to our favourite episodes of all time where we explain the very essence of our conception of the Enduring Disorder as a period where international institutions tend not to work and where coordinating the allies to stay on the same page about things like defence, climate change, and taxation is a tremendous challenge. The rare exception is NATO, it mostly works even if Trump rails against it. This episode explains why.

If you didn’t hear this when it came out in October, 2023, I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now.

Nation states no longer work effectively in tandem. Gone are the days of hegemonic US power directly ordering the allies. Furthermore, groups like the UN are ineffective, with disruptors often calling the shots. However, NATO stands apart as an example of how countries can work together successfully and how a global institution can remain largely uncontroversial, while doing serious coordinating work to solve real world problems.

In this episode our hosts and guests relate their perspectives about what NATO stands for, its strengths and limitations, and the threats it faces. Former NATO Deputy Sec General, Jamie Shea tells about how the organisation worked in the Balkans and Afghanistan, while Kori Schake mulls over the role of the US as NATO’s hegemonic leader. Timothy Garton Ash comments on distinctions between NATO and the EU especially as pertains to values like liberty. Finally, Charles Kupchan examines why Russia chooses to actively disorder. Charles and Jason disagree agreeable on China’s role as an orderer vs. disorderer.

For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For more on Kori Schake, visit https://www.aei.org/profile/kori-schake/ 

For more on Jamie Shea, visit https://www.chathamhouse.org/about-us/our-people/jamie-shea

Get Timothy Garton Ash’s book, Homelands at - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/442543/homelands-by-ash-timothy-garton/9781847926616 

For more on Charles Kupchan, visit https://www.cfr.org/expert/charles-kupchan

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Ep 199. Rerun: NATO: A Model for Ordering the Disorder?

With Friedrich Merz officially at the helm, Germany is entering a new era. But with the AfD breathing down his neck – the country is actually more internally Disordered than outsiders may realise. We ask: could the answer be a new – inclusive – brand of nationalism?
To find out, Jane Kinninmont is joined by Will Wilkes: Bloomberg News correspondent in Germany and co-author of ‘Broken Republik: The Inside Story of Germany's Descent into Crisis’. The pair discuss the current state of Germany, discussing how Germany's historical context – not just WWII but also the impact of the financial crisis and the refugee influx – has shaped its present situation. Plus: Germany's role in European security and the challenges posed by the rise of the far-right party, AFD.
And as Jane and Will Order the Disorder – they discuss how to create a cohesive German national identity – could it be fostering unity by creating new community celebrations?

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow 

Check out our recent YouTube ‘The DC Jewish Museum shooting: The Disorderly illogic of it’ - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BaWtQ5bH-Q&t=2s 

Show Notes Links:

Broken Republik (English edition): https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/broken-republik-9781526679161/ 

Totally Kaputt (German edition): https://www.piper.de/buecher/totally-kaputt-isbn-978-3-492-07328-8 

Friedrich Merz is no unifier – he may deepen Germany’s divides (The Guardian): https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/may/05/germany-unifier-chancellor-divide-friedrich-merz 

Germany’s identity crisis is 80 years in the making (Bloomberg): https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-03-10/germany-s-political-center-challenged-by-afd-russia-china-and-trump?sref=ttOZ5TVM

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Ep 120. Could Nationalism Save Germany? With Will Wilkes

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