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Justin Kempf


Is it possible for a democracy to govern undemocratically? Can the people elect an undemocratic leader? Is it possible for democracy to bring about authoritarianism? And if so, what does this say about democracy? ​​My name is Justin Kempf. Every week I talk to the brightest minds on subjects like international relations, political theory, and history to explore democracy from every conceivable angle. Topics like civil resistance, authoritarian successor parties, and the autocratic middle class challenge our ideas about democracy. Join me as we unravel new topics every week.


Democracy Paradox

In this episode, Justin interviews Susan Stokes, the Tiffany and Margaret Blake Distinguished Service Professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago and Director of the Chicago Center on Democracy. They discuss her new book The Backsliders, which explains how economic inequality and political polarization create conditions that allow leaders to undermine democratic institutions. She explores the roles of populism, voter behavior, and institutional erosion in democratic backsliding worldwide.

Read the transcript here.

The Democracy Paradox is made in partnership with the Kellogg Institute at the Keough School of Global Affairs at the University of Notre Dame. 

Chapters

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • Leadership - 3:51
 • Economic Inequality - 6:35
 • Polarization - 19:35
 • Populism - 27:27

Key Links

Learn more about Susan Stokes.

Backsliders: Why Leaders Undermine their Own Democracies

Victoria Murillo - The Social Underpinnings of Political Discontent in Latin America - September 23rd, 12:30pm - 2:00pm Central Time. If you can't make it, click here to watch the video!

Check out this year's visiting fellows to the Kellogg Institute here.

Support the show

Susan Stokes on Democratic Backsliders

We've often compared democratic national security and autocratic security making in terms of autocratic elites and democratic voters. My argument is not that all democracies are the same, but I do think we ought to be thinking about autocratic elites and democratic elites and voters.

Elizabeth Saunders

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Proudly sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Learn more at https://carnegieendowment.org

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Elizabeth Saunders is a Professor of Political Science at Columbia University as well as a non-resident senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. She is also an editor of The Good Authority Blog formerly known as The Monkey Cage Blog. Her most recent book is The Insiders’ Game: How Elites Make War and Peace.

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • How Foreign Policy Works - 3:30
 • Politics at the Water's Edge - 18:13
 • Parties and Foreign Policy - 27:09
 • Contemporary Politics - 41:28

Key Links

The Insiders’ Game: How Elites Make War and Peace by Elizabeth Saunders

Good Authority Blog

Learn more about Elizabeth Saunders

Democracy Paradox Podcast

Rep Mikie Sherrill on Whether the Bipartisan Consensus on Foreign Policy Will Hold and on Threats to American Democracy

Grading Biden’s Foreign Policy with Alexander Ward

More Episodes from the Podcast

More Information

Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at democracyparadoxblog@gmail.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

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The Last Episode. Elizabeth Saunders on How Democracies Wage War and Make Peace

I think we've seen democracies can be unstable. Autocracies are even more unstable.

David Moss

Made in partnership with the Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Get your copy of When Democracy Breaks or read it open access.

Access Episodes Ad-Free on Patreon

Make a one-time Donation to Democracy Paradox.

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Proudly sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Learn more at https://carnegieendowment.org

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Archon Fung is the Winthrop Laflin McCormack Professor of Citizenship and Self-Government at the Harvard Kennedy School. He is also the Director of the Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation.

David Moss is the Paul Whiton Cherington Professor at Harvard Business School. He is also founder and president of the Tobin Project and the Case Method Institute for Education and Democracy.

Arne Westad is the Elihu Professor of History and Global Affairs at Yale University.

They are the editors of When Democracy Breaks: Studies in Democratic Erosion and Collapse, From Ancient Athens to the Present Day.

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • Thinking about Democratic Breakdown - 3:51
 • What is Democracy - 19:26
 • Democratic Recovery - 26:36
 • Resilience and Fragility - 45:15

Key Links

When Democracy Breaks: Studies in Democratic Erosion and Collapse, From Ancient Athens to the Present Day edited by Archon Fung, David Moss, and Odd Arne Westad

"Introduction: When Democracy Breaks" by Archon Fung, David Moss, and Odd Arne Westad

Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Democracy Paradox Podcast

When Democracy Breaks: Scott Mainwaring on Argentina

When Democracy Breaks: 1930s Japan with Louise Young

More Episodes from the Podcast

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Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at jkempf@democracyparadox.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

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When Democracy Breaks: Final Thoughts with Archon Fung, David Moss and Arne Westad

March 24th, 1976 is the coup and it unleashes wild celebrations in establishment Argentina and almost no opposition.... Of course, this unleashed the most ruthless dictatorship in Argentina's history and in recent South American history as well.

Scott Mainwaring

Made in partnership with the Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Get your copy of When Democracy Breaks or read it open access.

Access Episodes Ad-Free on Patreon

Make a one-time Donation to Democracy Paradox.

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Proudly sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Learn more at https://carnegieendowment.org

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Scott Mainwaring is the Eugene and Helen Conley Professor of Political Science at Notre Dame. He was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 2010. His most recent book is Democracy in Hard Places (coedited with Tarek Masoud). In April 2019, PS: Political Science and Politics listed him as one of the 50 most cited political scientists in the world.

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • Democratization in 1973 - 3:41
 • Democratic Erosion - 18:30
 • Breakdown - 39:08
 • Argentina Today - 43:18

Key Links

When Democracy Breaks: Studies in Democratic Erosion and Collapse, From Ancient Athens to the Present Day edited by Archon Fung, David Moss, and Odd Arne Westad

"Democratic Breakdown in Argentina, 1976" by Scott Mainwaring

Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Democracy Paradox Podcast

Scott Mainwaring on Argentina and a Final Reflection on Democracy in Hard Places

When Democracy Breaks: 1930s Japan with Louise Young

More Episodes from the Podcast

More Information

Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at jkempf@democracyparadox.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

Support the show

When Democracy Breaks: Scott Mainwaring on Argentina

There's a fog of democratic breakdown where really you cannot see the actual impact of your choices or your actions until after the fact.

Louise Young

Made in partnership with the Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Get your copy of When Democracy Breaks or read it open access.

Access Episodes Ad-Free on Patreon

Make a one-time Donation to Democracy Paradox.

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Proudly sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Learn more at https://carnegieendowment.org

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Louise Young is a professor of history at the University of Wisonsin-Madison. She is the author of the chapter “The Breakdown of Democracy in 1930s Japan.” It is part of the volume When Democracy Breaks: Studies in Democratic Erosion and Collapse, From Ancient Athens to the Present Day.

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • Democratization - 2:52
 • What Made it Different - 11:41
 • Democratic Breakdown - 20:14
 • Resisting Democratic Erosion - 37:15

Key Links

When Democracy Breaks: Studies in Democratic Erosion and Collapse, From Ancient Athens to the Present Day edited by Archon Fung, David Moss, and Odd Arne Westad

"The Breakdown in Democracy in 1930s Japan" by Louise Young

Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Democracy Paradox Podcast

When Democracy Breaks: Ancient Athens with Josiah Ober and Federica Carugati

Dan Slater on Indonesia

More Episodes from the Podcast

More Information

Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at jkempf@democracyparadox.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

Support the show

When Democracy Breaks: 1930s Japan with Louise Young

What strikes me about that period is that democracy was not inevitable.

Federica Carugati

Made in partnership with the Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Get your copy of When Democracy Breaks or read it open access.

Access Episodes Ad-Free on Patreon

Make a one-time Donation to Democracy Paradox.

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Proudly sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Learn more at https://carnegieendowment.org

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Josiah Ober is a Professor of Political Science and Classics at Stanford University. Federica Carugati is a Lecturer in History and Political Economy at King's College London. They are the coauthors of the chapter “Democratic Collapse and Recovery in Ancient Athens (413-403 BCE)” in a new book called When Democracy Breaks: Studies in Democratic Erosion and Collapse, From Ancient Athens to the Present Day.

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • Democratization - 3:28
 • Breakdown - 17:36
 • Rebirth - 36:48
 • Final Lessons - 47:51

Key Links

When Democracy Breaks: Studies in Democratic Erosion and Collapse, From Ancient Athens to the Present Day edited by Archon Fung, David Moss, and Odd Arne Westad

"Democratic Collapse and Recovery in Ancient Athens (413-403 BCE)" by Federica Carugati and Josiah Ober

Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Democracy Paradox Podcast

Does Democracy Rely on a Civic Bargain? Josiah Ober Makes the Case

David Stasavage on Early Democracy and its Decline

More Episodes from the Podcast

More Information

Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at jkempf@democracyparadox.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

Support the show

When Democracy Breaks: Ancient Athens with Josiah Ober and Federica Carugati

I think that if you got rid of the Electoral College, in the short run, there would be losers. But it hasn't always been the same group and it hasn't always been the same party.

Alexander Keyssar

Made in partnership with the Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Make a one-time Donation to Democracy Paradox.

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Proudly sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Learn more at https://carnegieendowment.org

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Alexander Keyssar is the Matthew W. Stirling Jr. Professor of History and Social Policy at Harvard University and the author of the book Why Do We Still Have the Electoral College?

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • Origin of the Electoral College - 3:05
 • Proportional or District Electoral Votes - 17:37
 • Race and Civil Rights - 27:02
 • Why No Reform - 41:44

Key Links

Why Do We Still Have the Electoral College? by Alexander Keyssar

Watch Electoral College Symposium: What’s to be Done?

Follow Alexander Keyssar on X @AlexKeyssar

Democracy Paradox Podcast

Heather Cox Richardson on History, Conservatism, and the Awakening of American Democracy

Daniel Ziblatt on American Democracy, the Republican Party, and the Tyranny of the Minority

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Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at jkempf@democracyparadox.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

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Alexander Keyssar on Why We Still Have the Electoral College

You actually have to fight in every generation, if you want to preserve liberalism. It's not just going to preserve itself. It's not just the end of history. It isn't just the final resting place of humanity - not by any stretch of the imagination. It's a continual struggle.

Robert Kagan

Access Episodes Ad-Free on Patreon

Make a one-time Donation to Democracy Paradox.

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Proudly sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Learn more at https://carnegieendowment.org

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Robert Kagan is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a columnist for The Washington Post. He is the author of many books including most recently The Ghost at the Feast: America and the Collapse of World Order, 1900-1941 and Rebellion: How Antiliberalism Is Tearing America Apart--Again.

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • Traditions of Liberalism and Antiliberalism - 3:04
 • Antiliberalism as an Idea - 8:35
 • Tension Within Ourselves - 21:25
 • Future of Liberalism and Antiliberalism - 37:42

Key Links

Rebellion: How Antiliberalism Is Tearing America Apart--Again by Robert Kagan

The Ghost at the Feast: America and the Collapse of World Order, 1900-1941 by Robert Kagan

Follow Robert Kagan at the Brookings Institution

Democracy Paradox Podcast

Robert Kagan Looks to American History to Explain Foreign Policy Today

Heather Cox Richardson on History, Conservatism, and the Awakening of American Democracy

More Episodes from the Podcast

More Information

Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at jkempf@democracyparadox.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

Support the show

Robert Kagan on the Threat of Antiliberalism

People in Congress are leaders in their communities and people in some parts of this country are, in my opinion, being led astray.

Rep. Mikie Sherrill

This episode was made in partnership with the Andrea Mitchell Center for the Study of Democracy

Access Episodes Ad-Free on Patreon

Make a one-time Donation to Democracy Paradox.

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Proudly sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Learn more at https://carnegieendowment.org

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Representative Mikie Sherrill represents the 11th Congressional District of New Jersey. She sits on the Committee on Armed Services, Subcommittee on Readiness, Subcommittee on Tactical Air and Land Forces, and the Select Committee on Strategic Competition between the United States and the Chinese Communist Party. She holds a Bachelor’s degree from the United States Naval Academy, a Master’s degree in Global History from the London School of Economics and Political Science, and a Law degree from Georgetown University. She is a military veteran with almost ten years of active duty service.

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • Personal Background - 3:48
 • Polarization and Foreign Policy - 13:50
 • China - 23:36
 • American Democracy - 28:41

Key Links

Learn more about Rep. Mikie Sherrill on her Congressional page

Follow Rep. Mikie Sherrill on X @RepSherrill or @MikieSherrill

Rep. Mikie Sherrill's Campaign Page

Democracy Paradox Podcast

Grading Biden’s Foreign Policy with Alexander Ward

Can America Fight Back Against the Authoritarian Economic Statecraft of China? Bethany Allen Believes We Can

More Episodes from the Podcast

More Information

Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at jkempf@democracyparadox.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

Support the show

Rep Mikie Sherrill on Whether the Bipartisan Consensus on Foreign Policy Will Hold and on Threats to American Democracy

What does it mean to empower women politically in a context in which the dominant party is engaged in democratic backsliding or other forms of illiberal and exclusionary politics? Would you still want more women to be part of that party?

Saskia Brechenmacher

Access Episodes Ad-Free on Patreon

Make a one-time Donation to Democracy Paradox.

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Made in partnership with the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Learn more at https://carnegieendowment.org

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Saskia Brechenmacher is a fellow in Carnegie’s Democracy, Conflict, and Governance Program. Recently, she coauthored a new book with Katherine Mann called Aiding Empowerment: Democracy Promotion and Gender Equality in Politics.

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • Democracy Promotion and Gender Equality - 3:13
 • Gender Quotas - 12:38
 • Challenges - 28:12
 • New Ideas and Issues - 44:53

Key Links

Aiding Empowerment: Democracy Promotion and Gender Equality in Politics by Saskia Brechenmacher and Katherine Mann

Learn more about Saskia Brechenmacher at the Carnegie Endowment

Follow Saskia Brechenmacher on X @SaskiaBrech

Democracy Paradox Podcast

Marc Plattner Has Quite a Bit to Say About Democracy

Larry Diamond on Supporting Democracy in the World and at Home

More Episodes from the Podcast

More Information

Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at jkempf@democracyparadox.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

Support the show

Susan Stokes on Democratic Backsliders

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