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Jeffrey Palermo

The Azure & DevOps Podcast is a show for developers and devops professionals shipping software using Microsoft technologies. Each show brings you hard-hitting interviews with industry experts innovating better methods and sharing success stories. Listen in to learn how to increase quality, ship quickly, and operate well. Hosted by Jeffrey Palermo and sponsored by Clear Measure, Inc.

Azure DevOps Podcast

Today’s guest is Jon Peppers, Principal Software Engineer on the .NET MAUI team at Microsoft. Before building developer tools, Jonathan was a Xamarin MVP and the lead developer behind various cross-platform Maui apps. With a deep background in C#, from WPF-based self-checkout systems to home automation software featured on Extreme Home Makeover, Jonathan brings a wealth of experience in both app development and the frameworks that power them.
 
 
 
Topics of Discussion:
 
[1:59] Jonathan recounts his first job after college, working on C# for self-checkout software and migrating to WPF.
 
[4:40] How much on the continuum are we right now with Copilot agent mode?
 
[7:11] The process of setting up Maui development, including installing Visual Studio and the Maui workload.
 
[12:40] Using Copilot for multi-language debugging.
 
[18:42] Copilot's effectiveness in deleting unnecessary files and finding errors in string localization files.
 
[19:10] Copilot coding agent.
 
[21:20] The process of assigning issues to Copilot, which creates a branch, opens a pull request, and updates the description with its plan.
 
[27:36] The availability of different models in VS Code, including Claude and GPT, and the anticipation of new models being released.
 
[31:36] The potential for using LLMs on-device for privacy concerns, especially in healthcare.
 
[35:01] Jonathan encourages developers to try Copilot in their IDEs and explore its code completions and suggestions.
 
[35:17] Jonathan’s Cat Swipe dating site!
 
 
 
Mentioned in this Episode:
 
Clear Measure Way
 
Architect Forum
 
Software Engineer Forum
 
How the .NET Maui Team uses GitHub Copilot for Productivity
 
Jonathan on LinkedIn
 
Jonathan Peppers
 
 
 
Want to Learn More?
 
Visit AzureDevOps.Show for show notes and additional episodes.

Jonathan Peppers: GitHub Copilot for Maui Applications - Episode 364

Micah Martin is a co-founder, CEO, and Studio Director for Clean Coders. He’s a 2nd-generation coder, serial entrepreneur, family man, pilot, airplane builder, engineer, author, and just a normal guy trying to enjoy life to the fullest.
 
 
 
He is also a co-author of Agile Principles, Patterns, and Practices in C#, along with his father, Robert C. Martin, also known as Uncle Bob, and a contributor to the popular testing framework FitNesse, among other things.
 
 
 
Topics of Discussion:
 
[1:52] Micah talks about early influences from his father, Uncle Bob, including childhood “robot” games and learning to code on a Commodore 64 and the first Macintosh.
 [3:47] First job working alongside industry legends like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham, and the humbling realization that college hadn’t prepared him to build real software.
 
[5:00] Founding Clean Coders to distribute training videos and later expanding into custom software development with Clean Coders Studio.
 [6:54] Why apprenticeship is key to developing strong software engineers and how Pete McBreen’s Software Craftsmanship influenced his approach.
 [8:20] Parallels between martial arts training under a sensei and learning software from a master craftsman.
 [11:23] How Clean Coders apprentices learn new languages like Clojure through Project Euler challenges and Koans, and why maintaining and extending code is essential training.
 [15:13] The origins and purpose of FitNesse, acceptance testing, and the need for a modern replacement.
 [18:43] The gap in tooling for non-programmers to write executable tests, and AI’s potential role in bridging it.
 
[20:35] The role of bullet-point test scenarios in developer/customer collaboration.
 [21:07] The decline of Agile’s technical focus and the creation of the Software Craftsmanship Manifesto at a summit in Libertyville, IL.
 [25:29] Carrying forward the Clean Code discipline in both training and client projects.
 [27:11] Plans to offer a digital apprenticeship experience through CleanCoders.com.
 [28:17] How Micah uses AI for algorithms, test data generation, and client projects, plus its current limitations.
 [36:37] Lessons from aviation autopilot systems and why humans remain essential in software development.
 
 
 
Mentioned in this Episode:
 
Clear Measure Way
 
Architect Forum
 
Software Engineer Forum
 
 Agile Principals, Patterns, and Practices in C#
 
Clean Coders
 
 
 
Want to Learn More?
 
Visit AzureDevOps.Show for show notes and additional episodes.

Micah Martin: Clean Coders - Episode 363

Burke Holland is a Principal Developer Advocate at Microsoft who leads the Developer Tools Advocacy team. He’s done so much in developer tools, like growing VS Code from 6M to 40M+ users. He’s a frequent speaker at conferences like Microsoft Build, Ignite, GitHub Universe, QCon, and VS Code Day, which he helped create. He’s led many product launches for GitHub Copilot, Codespaces, and more. He has a very popular YouTube channel talking about developer tech.
 
 
 
Topics of Discussion:
 
[3:33] Burke describes his transition from being a good developer to an evangelist, inspired by a Visual Studio evangelist he met.
 
[6:27] The rapid pace of change in the software development world compared to other industries.
 
[9:22] AI-driven development and the various modes available in VS Code, including ask mode, edit mode, and agent mode.
 
[15:41] Burke describes the current moment in AI developer tooling — no one really knows yet what the end product is supposed to be. Everyone agrees AI will help developers, but exactly how is still being figured out.
 
[16:39] What are the right questions to ask AI?
 
[17:41] The importance of providing the AI with the right context to ensure accurate and efficient development.
 
[25:05] AI’s unpredictability makes it difficult to rely on it for consistent development tasks, which is frustrating and foreign to most developers.
 
[32:18] Burke explains that while local AI models can handle small, scoped tasks like generating a function’s contents, they still fall far short of the performance needed for more complex jobs compared to models like GPT-4 or Claude.
 
[37:18] Co-Pilot’s competition.
 
[38:23] Inspiration to people that as long as you are the software architect, you can do anything.
 
 
 
Mentioned in this Episode:
 
Clear Measure Way
 
Architect Forum
 
Software Engineer Forum
 
Programming with Palermo — New Video Podcast! Email us at programming@palermo.net.
 
 VS Code Day 2024
 
Youtube.com/@BurkeHolland/videos
 
Burkeholland.github.io/resume/
 
 Build.microsoft.com/en-US/speakers/0e476452-35ca-4750-ac78-393c0d8c4cb3
 
Linkedin.com/in/burkeholland/
 
 
 
Want to Learn More?
 
Visit AzureDevOps.Show for show notes and additional episodes.

Burke Holland: GitHub Copilot Agent - Episode 362

Ted Neward currently labors on behalf of Capital One as a Senior Distinguished Engineer, leveraging his speaking, writing, and coding experience to bring a technology-focused and -sharpened mindset to the mortgage industry. During his more code-focused years, he specialized in high-scale enterprise systems, working with clients ranging in size from Fortune 500 corporations to small 10-person shops. He is an authority in Java and .NET technologies, particularly in the areas of Java/.NET integration (both in-process and via integration tools like Web services), programming languages of all forms, back-end enterprise software systems, and virtual machine/execution engine plumbing.
 
 
 
He is the author or co-author of several books, including Professional F# 2.0, Effective Enterprise Java, C# In a Nutshell, SSCLI Essentials, Server-Based Java Programming, and a contributor to several technology journals. All told, he has written well over a hundred articles in both print and online form.
 
 
 
Ted has also been an “insider” of one form or another with a variety of the technology providers of the world: an IBM Champion of Cloud, a Microsoft F# MVP (having also been an Architect and C# MVP in prior years), an F# Insider, C# Insider, VB Insider, INETA speaker, DevelopMentor instructor, PluralSight course author, and a member of various Java JSRs.
 
 
 
Topics of Discussion:
 
[2:44] Ted’s career journey and what keeps him motivated in the industry.
 
[4:16] Why Ted believes the industry is overdue for a new mainstream programming language.
 
[8:12] The evolution of case tools, UML, and why generating code has never been the real problem.
 
[15:14] The challenge of keeping architecture simple versus embracing complexity.
 
[22:33] The role of philosophy in software development.
 
[38:01] Lessons from calculators, fundamentals, and why developers must still master core skills.
 
[38:46] The impact of AI on productivity and job roles.
 
[43:25] The Importance of Domain-Specific Languages (DSLs).
 
[56:26] Ted and Jeffrey talk about a recent article in The Economist, “Jane Street’s sneaky retention tactic”.
 
[1:01:54] The importance of writing as a tool for developers to structure their thoughts and improve communication.
 
[1:04:02] A few of the upcoming places and events that you can catch Ted speaking live!
 
 
 
Mentioned in this Episode:
 
Clear Measure Way
 
Architect Forum
 
Software Engineer Forum
 
Programming with Palermo — New Video Podcast! Email us at programming@palermo.net.
 
Ted Neward LinkedIn
 
Visual Studio Live!
 
KCDC
 
Voxxed Days, Crete
 
 Build Stuff
 
 
 
Want to Learn More?
 
Visit AzureDevOps.Show for show notes and additional episodes.

Ted Neward: Software Architecture - Episode 361

Joe Cuevas Jr. is a seasoned software engineer based in San Antonio, Texas, with a strong focus on front-end development and user experience. At Southwest Research Institute, he contributes to innovative engineering solutions that span industries. With a background that blends technical precision and creative problem-solving, Joe brings a thoughtful perspective to the evolving world of software development. His passion for clean design, scalable code, and collaborative innovation makes him a standout voice in today’s tech landscape.
 
 
 
Topics of Discussion:
 
[1:46] Why Joe fell in love with programming after a single VB.NET class.
 [5:00] What guided Joe towards the enterprise side of .NET.
 
[6:25] Joe’s favorite foundational .NET and ASP.NET Core books.
 
[9:06] Learning algorithms, concurrency, and testing to make up for no CS degree.
 
[10:00] Why test automation is essential and doing testing immediately after writing the code.
 [12:14] Thoughts on test-driven development vs. testing right after coding.
 [14:18] Previewing Microsoft Semantic Kernel in Action, by Daniel Costa.
 [15:38] How Joe became a Manning book reviewer, and what he’s learned.
 [17:18] Prompt engineering and agent instructions: what’s ready now.
 [18:21] Codex and the moment that blew Joe’s mind.
 [22:26] How Joe sees software architecture evolving in the future.
 [24:09] Large language models vs. older code bases, and where they shine.
 [27:57] Dependency injections.
 
[32:43] Joe’s advice for junior developers and why persistence beats perfection.
 

 
Mentioned in this Episode:
 
Clear Measure Way
 
Architect Forum
 
Software Engineer Forum
 
Programming with Palermo — New Video Podcast! Email us at programming@palermo.net.
 
Joe Cuevas LinkedIn
 
ASP.NET Core in Action
 
 ASP.NET Core in Action, Third Edition
 
Unit Testing Principles, Practice, and Patterns
 
 Unit Testing Principles, Practices, and Patterns: Effective testing styles, patterns, and reliable automation for unit testing, mocking, and integration testing with examples in C#
 
 Dependency Injection in .NET
 
 Microsoft Semantic Kernel in Action
 
Explore — LeetCode
 
Joe on GitHub
 
 
 
Want to Learn More?
 
Visit AzureDevOps.Show for show notes and additional episodes.

Joe Cuevas: Your First Decade as a Software Engineer - Episode 360

An international speaker, Microsoft MVP, ASPInsider, MCSD, PSM II, PSD, and PST, and a passionate member of the developer community, Phil has been working with .NET since the first betas, developing software for over 40 years, and has been heavily involved in the Agile community since 2005 as well as a Professional Scrum Trainer. Phil has taken over the best-selling Pro C# books (Apress Publishing), including Pro C# 10, is the President of the Cincinnati .NET Users Group (Cinnug.org), and the Cincinnati Software Architect Group, founded and runs the CincyDeliver conference (Cincydeliver.org), and volunteers for the National Ski Patrol. During the day, Phil works as the CTO & Chief Architect for Pintas & Mullins. Phil always enjoys learning new tech and is always striving to improve his craft.
 
 
 
Topics of Discussion:
 
[2:53] Why Phil still loves writing software after 40-plus years. 
 
[5:39] The difference between being a consultant and supporting code long-term.
 
[8:27] Agile roles and user experience.
 
[8:40] Embedding engineers in the business to avoid “telephone game” decisions.
 
[11:30] “Move fast” vs. move efficiently — real-world cautionary tales.
 
[13:40] Using Figma for business rule diagramming before writing a single line of code.
 
[14:52] Releasing 4 x per week and getting rapid feedback.
 
[16:49] NASCAR, motocross, and the connection of slow builds of how software teams avoid friction.
 
[18:41] Measuring team efficiency, and how Phil eliminated emergency production fixes by mandating quality.
 
[22:00] Feature flags, PBI coverage, and the team’s shared ownership of the code.
 
[26:09] AI in legal tech: where it works, where it doesn’t.
 
[34:56] The architectural shift created by LLMs, vector databases, and agents.
 
[39:42] AI is not the goal — it’s just a tool for solving the right problems.
 
[44:03] How Phil uses GitHub Copilot’s agent mode to streamline development.
 [46:03] Final thoughts: “It’s not about the tech. It’s about making someone’s life better.”
 
 
 
Mentioned in this Episode:
 
Clear Measure Way
 
Architect Forum
 
Software Engineer Forum
 
Programming with Palermo — New Video Podcast! Email us at programming@palermo.net.
 
“Clear Measure, Inc.” (Sponsor)
 
 “Philip Japikse: Professional C# in .NET - Episode 230”
 
 “Philip Japikse: Migrating from .NET Framework to .NET 8 - Episode 296”
 
 
 
Want to Learn More?
 
Visit AzureDevOps.Show for show notes and additional episodes.

Philip Japikse: Catching up - Episode 359

Today’s guest is Mark Miller, a multi-time C# MVP whose work blends software architecture with cognitive science. As the Chief Architect of the IDE Tools division at Developer Express, Mark is the visionary behind CodeRush — a toolset designed to maximize developer productivity through intelligent design. With nearly four decades of experience creating software tools, Mark’s expertise spans decoupled design, plug-in architectures, and the nuanced craft of great user interfaces. He’s a top-ranked international speaker, known for unpacking complex ideas with clarity, and he shares his thought process in real time on Twitch.tv/CodeRushed.
 
 
 
Topics of Discussion:
 
[3:20] Why Mark still loves building developer tools.
 
[6:31] Mark talks about GitHub Copilot agent technology and other AI coding tools.
 
[8:00] The unique edge of CodeRush AI and its distinct advantages in user interface design.
 
[8:39] The future of AI in code generation, predicting increased speed and accuracy in large language models.
 
[9:02] The importance of managing multiple virtual developers in the future, compared to managing traditional software developers.
 
[15:21] Demonstration of CodeRush AI features.
 
[23:51] Mark creates a new class with properties and initializes it with realistic data.
 
[24:40] Mark highlights AI’s ability to modify and integrate code changes automatically, reducing the need for manual copying and pasting.
 
[36:32] AI Find.
 
[37:09] Advantages of CodeRush AI over competitors.
 
 
 
Mentioned in this Episode:
 
Clear Measure Way
 
Architect Forum
 
Software Engineer Forum
 
Programming with Palermo — New Video Podcast! Email us at programming@palermo.net.
 
Clear Measure, Inc. (Sponsor)
 
 “Mark Miller: The Science of Great UI in Software - Episode 212”
 
CodeRushed - Twitch
 
Mark Miller on LinkedIn
 
 
 
Want to Learn More?
 
Visit AzureDevOps.Show for show notes and additional episodes.

Mark Miller: CodeRush AI - Episode 358

Robert C. Martin, more often known as Uncle Bob, has been programming since 1970 and has served as a mentor to generations of software engineers. He’s one of the original authors of the Agile Manifesto and played a foundational role in forming the Agile Alliance, where he served as its first chairman. But beyond titles and organizations, Bob’s lasting impact comes through his writing, his lectures, and his philosophy of software craftsmanship. He has spoken at conferences around the world — QCon, Agile 20XX, IT Days, and countless other industry gatherings — always advocating for clarity, discipline, and ethical responsibility in code. And if you’ve ever read Clean Code, The Clean Coder, or Clean Architecture, you know that he doesn’t just teach how to build systems — he challenges us to become better professionals in the process. His most recent work, Functional Design, continues this legacy, distilling decades of experience into patterns and principles that are just as relevant today as they were when he first put finger to keyboard.
 
 
 
Topics of Discussion:
 
[2:22] Uncle Bob’s advice for young programmers entering the field: Be cautious with AI tools, learn fundamental programming skills, and understand that AI won’t replace programmers.
 
[4:42] Get to the basics first, and then you can move on: Master core programming skills and fundamentals before relying too heavily on AI or advanced tools.
 
[8:19] The impact of AI on experienced developers.
 
[15:44] Highlighting the role of programmers in managing low-level details that managers and customers don’t want to think about.
 
[18:43] Programmers as language learners.
 
[27:19] The state of Agile methodologies.
 
[29:33] The original Agile goal of making small teams work efficiently together, which remains a crucial challenge.
 
[35:37] Discussing the limitations of university computer science programs and the potential of trade school or apprenticeship models.
 
[36:07] What’s next for Uncle Bob?
 
 
 
Mentioned in this Episode:
 
Clear Measure Way
 
Architect Forum
 
Software Engineer Forum
 
Programming with Palermo — New Video Podcast! Email us at programming@palermo.net.
 
Clear Measure, Inc. (Sponsor)
 
 Clean Agile: Back to Basics 
 
 Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
 
 We, Programmers: A Chronicle of Coders from Ada to AI
 
 “Uncle Bob Martin: Clean Code and How to Do Software Well - Episode 283”
 
 Functional Design: Principles, Patterns, and Practices
 
UncleBob on GitHub
 
The Clean Code Blog
 
 Agile Principles, Patterns, Practices
 
Clean Coders
 
 
 
Want to Learn More?
 
Visit AzureDevOps.Show for show notes and additional episodes.

Uncle Bob Martin: Software Leader - Episode 357

Today’s guest is a true heavyweight in the .NET open-source world — someone whose work has quietly but profoundly shaped the way countless developers build software. Jimmy Bogard is the creator and maintainer of two of the most widely used OSS libraries in the .NET ecosystem: AutoMapper and MediatR. If you've ever tried to simplify object mapping or decouple application logic, chances are you've used his tools. Based in Austin, Texas, Jimmy is an independent software consultant and a perennial recipient of the Microsoft Most Valuable Professional award every single year since 2009. That’s more than a decade and a half of consistent, community-driven excellence. AutoMapper alone has been around for 17 years and has racked up hundreds of millions of downloads. It started as a personal tool to streamline development for client projects and grew into a global standard for object mapping.
 
 
 
Topics of Discussion:
 
[3:15] What keeps Jimmy passionate about coding?
 
[5:19] The decision to commercialize both libraries.
 
[6:33] What dual licensing means in practice.
 
[12:11] Which version of each library will include the license change?
 
[16:26] Current major versions of AutoMapper (v14) and MediatR (v12).
 
[17:28] MediatR: the problem it solves and how it structures code.
 
[20:45] Organizing code by use case.
 
[26:00] AutoMapper: what it is and why it helps.
 
[33:28] API design strategy and tailoring endpoints to use cases.
 
[37:25] OpenAPI vs asyncAPI for message-based systems.
 
[41:49] Blazor WebAssembly and remote handlers.
 
 
 
Mentioned in this Episode:
 
Clear Measure Way
 
Architect Forum
 
Software Engineer Forum
 
Programming with Palermo — New Video Podcast! Email us at programming@palermo.net.
 
Clear Measure, Inc. (Sponsor)
 
 “Jimmy Bogard: .NET 7 and Azure Modernization - Episode 264”
 
GitHub — Jimmy Bogard eShop
 
GitHub — Jimmy Bogard
 
GitHub — Automapper
 
NuGet Gallery
 
NuGet Gallery — MediatR
 
Releases — J. Bogard
 
Jimmy Bogard
 
 AutoMapper and MediatR Licensing Update
 
 
 
Want to Learn More?
 
Visit AzureDevOps.Show for show notes and additional episodes.

Jimmy Bogard: MediatR & AutoMapper - Episode 356

Steven Smith, also known in the developer community as Ardalis, is an entrepreneur, author, and software architect with a deep passion for building effective, maintainable software. Through his company, NimblePros, Steve helps organizations — ranging from household names like Microsoft and Quicken Loans to growing teams across industries — maximize their development potential. His clients frequently describe him as a “force multiplier,” amplifying the productivity and impact of the teams he supports.
 
 
 
Steve has been recognized as a Microsoft MVP for over two decades and continues to lead through education and mentorship. He’s published numerous courses on Pluralsight and Dometrain, focusing on topics like domain-driven design, software architecture, and design patterns. He also empowers developers through his mentorship platform, DevBetter.com, helping the next generation of professionals grow their careers with intention and clarity.
 
 
 
Topics of Discussion:
 
[2:28] What keeps Steve excited about computer programming and software architecture?
 
[4:42] What is software architecture?
 
[6:18] The importance of understanding the logical components of a software system and how they interact.
 
[7:06] Artifacts for architecture decisions.
 
[8:52] How lightweight documentation and diagrams, like those in the C4 Model, can clarify system design without overburdening the team.
 
[10:53] The modern architecture books that have caught Steve’s eye.
 
[12:57] The KISS principle and keeping software architecture simple.
 
[19:38] Clean architecture and domain-driven design principles.
 
[22:52] Managing out-of-process dependencies and service integrations.
 
[26:07] Adapter pattern and interface abstractions.
 
[28:33] Decorator pattern for adding functionality.
 
[33:14] Pipeline Architecture.
 
[40:35] What Steve thinks the future holds for AI-driven development, what he uses it for, and the challenges of AI currently.
 
 
 
Mentioned in this Episode:
 
Clear Measure Way
 
Architect Forum
 
Software Engineer Forum
 
Programming with Palermo — New Video Podcast! Email us at programming@palermo.net.
 
Clear Measure, Inc. (Sponsor)
 
 “Steve Smith: .NET 8 and Architecture” - Episode 276
 
NimblePros 
 
 Architect Modern Web Applications with ASP.NET Core and Azure 
 
C4 Model 
 
 “Simon Brown on Architecture for Developers - Episode 96”
 
 Fundamentals of Software Architecture, by Mark Richards & Neal Ford, summarized as a platform-agnostic, principle-driven guide 
 
 .NET Rocks! “Architecture vs. Code with Steve Smith” 
 
 .NET Rocks! “Vertical Slice Architecture with Jeremy Miller” 
 
GoF Adapter pattern
 
.NET API interface estimate 
 
Decorator pattern
Bus Vs. Pipeline patterns
 
 
 
Want to Learn More?
 
Visit AzureDevOps.Show for show notes and additional episodes.

Mark Miller: CodeRush AI - Episode 358

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