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All In The Mind is ABC RN's weekly podcast looking into the mental universe, the mind, brain and behaviour — everything from addiction to artificial intelligence.

All In The Mind

Psychotherapist and relationship expert Esther Perel has had a lot of 'firsts' over her four decade-long career — counselling her first polyamorous relationship, or her first gay couple navigating surrogacy. Now, she's just done her first session with a man and his AI 'girlfriend'…

Did she struggle to take this ‘couple’ seriously? What kind of love can someone really form with a chatbot? And why would someone bring their AI partner to a relationship therapy session in the first place?This week, renowned psychotherapist, author, and speaker Esther Perel reflects on what’s changed in the decades she's worked as a relationship therapist; whether AI can be a helpful tool for therapy; and why we might be better off conceptualising AI companions as ‘transitional objects’ instead. Plus, join us in a few week's time for a very special mailbag episode with Esther, featuring your questions!

Guest:

Esther PerelPsychotherapist and couples therapistAuthor, The State of Affairs and Mating in CaptivityHost, Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel

Credits:

 • Presenter/producer: Sana Qadar
 • Senior producer: James Bullen
 • Producer: Rose Kerr
 • Sound engineers: Harvey O'Sullivan and Emrys Cronin

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

Esther Perel on love in the age of AI

Developmental paediatrician Dr Billy Garvey is returning to All in the Mind and we'd love to ask him your questions!

Billy is an expert on kids' mental health — last time he was on the show we discussed what's really going on with kids who are labelled "bad"; including insecure attachment, separation anxiety and emotional difficulties. 

He co-hosts Pop Culture Parenting and is the author of Ten things I wish you knew about your child's mental health.

So if you have any questions you'd like to put to Billy, send them to allinthemind@abc.net.au and include "question for Dr Billy Garvey" in the subject line.

And if you're looking for inspiration, you can find Dr Billy Garvey's previous episode here.

Thanks!

 - Sana and the All in the Mind team

We want your parenting questions

The siren has sounded. The scores are even. A footy player has one final chance to kick an easy goal to get his team into the finals.

He's right in front of the goals. He lines up. Kicks. Misses. The pressure of such a moment was phenomenal, and the player choked under it.

So what happens in the brain during such intense periods? Why can some people remain calm while others can't handle it?

This episode first aired in July 2024.

Guests:

Caroline AndersonPerformance psychologistLead psychologist for the Paris 2024 Australian Olympic Team

Dr Chris MesagnoSenior lecturer in sport and exercise psychology, Victoria University

Louise PotterFootballer and Darebin Falcons legend

Mary SpillaneClinical psychologist

Credits:

 • Presenter: Sana Qadar
 • Reporter/Producer: Belinda Smith
 • Producer: Rose Kerr, Petria Ladgrove
 • Sound engineer: Russell Stapleton

To view the transcript for this episode, head to its original webpage.

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

Why do we choke under pressure?

40 years ago, NASA experienced one of its most devastating disasters.

The Challenger space shuttle disintegrated just 73 seconds after launch, killing all seven crew members.

How had this happened? And did the culture of NASA have anything to do with it?

In this episode, we dig into a concept called 'normalisation of deviance', which has been touted as an explanation for this incident, as well as the Costa Concordia cruise ship disaster and a clinical drug trial that left six people in intensive care.

So what is 'normalisation of deviance'? How does it happen? And given its potential for harm, is there anything we can do to prevent it?

If you enjoyed this episode, check out the latest season of Science Friction, The Challenger Disaster (which is also produced by our senior producer James Bullen!)

Guests:

Dr Nejc SedlarLecturer, University of Aberdeen

Professor Sidney DekkerProfessor, Griffith University

Credits:

 • Presenter: Sana Qadar
 • Senior producer: James Bullen
 • Additional reporting/production: Fiona Pepper
 • Producer: Rose Kerr
 • Sound engineer: Roi Huberman

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

More information:

A qualitative systematic review on the application of the normalization of deviance phenomenon within high-risk industries.

Sidney Dekker — Drift into Failure.

Challenger: the disaster five people saw coming.

The Challenger Legacy — Science Friction.

Has NASA learned anything from the Challenger disaster?

When to trust your gut instinct, and when to ignore it

A deviation from standard design? Clinical trials, research ethics committees, and the regulatory co-construction of organizational deviance

Can 'normalisation of deviance' help to explain a catastrophe?

Renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel is coming to All in the Mind! And we'd love to ask her some of your questions.

Esther Perel is an internationally recognised couples therapist. You might know her as the author of Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs. Family, sex, intimacy, friendship, betrayal - Esther covers it all. 

So if you have any thorny relationship questions you'd like to ask her, send them to allinthemind@abc.net.au and include "question for Esther Perel" in the subject line.

Thanks!

Got a question for Esther Perel?

Slow walkers. Unmelted cheese in a toastie. Bad formatting in documents. 

If these small annoyances make you weirdly mad, you're not alone (in fact, you're human). But when little pet peeves add up, they can contribute much bigger problems like chronic stress. So what can you do about it?

Today: why small annoyances have such an outsized impact; why judging yourself doesn't help; and how elements of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) can help you better navigate these moments (as well as the bigger challenges in life).

And if you're not a fan of radical acceptance, which was covered in a recent episode, we go deeper on what it really means.

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

Guest:

Dr Patricia Zurita-OnaClinical psychologistAuthor

Credits:

 • Presenter/producer: Sana Qadar
 • Senior producer: James Bullen
 • Producer: Rose Kerr
 • Sound engineer: Roi Huberman

More information:

Relationship of daily hassles, uplifts, and major life events to health status

The peculiar longevity of things not so bad

Patricia's website and resources

Other recommended listening:

Chronically stressed? These small changes can help

Difficult people and radical acceptance: answering your questions about tricky relationships

The paradox of petty problems: Why small annoyances can snowball

When Blake's dad died by suicide, it came as a complete shock. Overwhelming grief, combined with confusion and guilt — it uprooted his life. The loss made him rethink his own mental health, and eventually, channel that into the community — fundraising and taking on three world records.

Today, we're talking about suicide bereavement; how it can affect family and friends, its long lasting impacts on mental health, and how to support someone going through the experience. It can be really tricky to talk about suicide, so how do you tackle talking to kids about this kind of loss?

Also, why are rates of suicide not going down, despite millions spent on prevention? And why do some people experience something called post-traumatic growth while others don't?

This episode discusses suicide, grief and mental illness in depth. Please take care while listening.

Guests:

Blake JohnstonFormer pro surferSurf CoachMental Health advocateAuthor, Swellbeing

Associate Professor Karl AndriessenPrincipal Research Fellow, Centre for Mental Health and Community WellbeingMelbourne School of Population and Global HealthUniversity of Melbourne

Tanja HirvonenClinical psychologistChief Executive Officer, ThirriliBoard Director, Australian Indigenous Psychologists AssociationBoard Director, Black Dog Institute

Credits:

 • Presenter/producer: Sana Qadar
 • Producer: Rose Kerr
 • Senior producer: James Bullen
 • Sound engineer: Harvey O'Sullivan

Thanks to freesound.org users tim.kahn and juskiddink

Support and resources:

Lifeline 13 11 14

Thirrili 1800 805 801

13 YARN 13 92 76

Beyond Blue 1300 22 4636

StandBy Support 1300 727 247

Roses in the ocean

More information:

Coping With A Parent's Suicide

Alarming rise in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander suicide rates

A better way: suicide prevention in First Nations communities

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

Grief and guilt: losing a loved one to suicide

Simon considers himself a calm, conscientious, conflict-avoidant type of person. But in the car, his personality flips — and it scares him.

It can be hard to admit, but many of us do experience road rage.

So what is it about being in the driver's seat that makes us so quick to anger? And does the type of car a person drives have anything to do with their propensity for aggression?

Today, we're talking about road rage; owning up to times we've lost our temper and finding out what we can do about it.

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.

Guests:

Dr Amanda StephensSenior Research Fellow,Monash University Accident Research Centre

SimonAll in the Mind listener and business owner

Credits:

 • Presenter/producer: Sana Qadar
 • Senior producer: James Bullen
 • Producer: Rose Kerr
 • Sound engineer: Harvey O'Sullivan

More information:

Estimated car cost as a predictor of driver yielding behaviors for pedestrians

Higher social class predicts increased unethical behavior

The fast and the furious: Research shows that owners of high-status cars are on a collision course with traffic

Driving me mad: why we get road rage

Over years of practice, clinical psychologist Dr Mary Anderson started to notice a peculiar pattern across her many clients.

Despite being impressive high achievers on the outside, inside they were struggling with burnout, imposter syndrome, anxiety and self-criticism.

So she set out to develop a guide for these high achievers. A framework to support their success ... without sacrificing their mental health.

You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.

This episode first aired in May 2025.

Guests:

Dr Mary AndersonClinical Psychologist; Author, The Happy High Achiever

Credits:

 • Presenter/Producer: Sana Qadar
 • Producer: Rose Kerr
 • Senior Producer: James Bullen
 • Sound Engineer: Tegan Nicholls

You can find the transcript for this episode on its original webpage here.

Extra Information:

The Happy High Achiever - Pan Macmillan Australia

The cognitive distortions of a high achiever

Many of us have felt self loathing at some point in our lives — maybe when you've failed at an important task at work, or lost an important relationship.

But some people hate themselves all the time — their inner monologue is a constant drumbeat of self-criticism and self-loathing. 

Where does this kind of all-encompassing self-hate come from? And is there a way to unlearn it?

We speak to psychiatrist Dr Blaise Aguirre, author of I Hate Myself: Overcome Self-Loathing and Realize Why You're Wrong About You. 

This episode discusses the topic of suicide - please take care while listening.

This episode first aired in February 2025.

Guest:

Dr Blaise AguirreChild and adolescent psychiatristAssistant Professor of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical SchoolAuthor, I Hate Myself: Overcome Self-Loathing and Realize Why You're Wrong About You

Credits:

 • Presenter/producer: Sana Qadar
 • Senior producer: James Bullen
 • Producer: Rose Kerr
 • Sound engineer: Isabella Tropiano

Thanks to Freesound.org users 7by7, qubodup, laft2k, andre.nascimento

To find the transcript for this episode, head to it's original webpage.

Resources:

Lifeline Australia1800RESPECT
You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.

Can 'normalisation of deviance' help to explain a catastrophe?

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