What it really takes to get your product approved by NASA

Not many startups land their tech on the moon.

Dymon has designed an autonomous lunar rover that will land near the lunar south pole later this year as part of NASA's Artemis program.

Today, we sit down and talk with founder Shin Nakajima who explains what it takes for a startup to become part of a NASA mission, the role YouTube had to play, what startups can contribute to space exploration, and how NASA and JAXA are changing to be more startup-friendly.

It's a great conversation, and I think you'll enjoy it.

Show Notes

How Yaoki became part of NASA's Artemis program How Yaoki got its name Why Dymon focused on lunar rather than terrestrial problems How to (not) make money building autonomous lunar rovers How the Artemis program is driving innovation Why we expect a lot of water at the lunar South Pole How a YouTube video got the attention of NASA What's involved in getting technology approved by NASA Possible Earth-bound use cases and long-term business model How to raise money for a literal moonshot The future of lunar exploration and settlement The role startups have to play in space exportation Why Japanese aerospace startups want to work with NASA rather than JAXA

Links from the Founder

Everything you ever wanted to know about Yaoki

Follow Yaoki on Twitter @yaoki_space_g or in Japanese The official Yaoki Facebook page

Follow Shin on Twitter @Shin_Nakajima Friend him on Facebook

Transcript Welcome to Disrupting Japan. Straight Talk from Japan's most successful entrepreneurs. I'm Tim Romero and thanks for joining me. Today we're going to talk about moonshots, and I don't mean moonshots in the sense of wildly ambitious dreams, although come to think of it, yeah, yeah. We're also going to talk a lot about wildly ambitious dreams. But today's focus is on actually going to the moon. Shin Nakajima's startup Dymon has built a lunar rover called Yaoki that later this year we'll be traveling to the moon as part of NASA's Artemis project. Now, the name Yaoki comes from the Japanese expression nanakorobi-yaoki, which means falling down seven times and getting up eight. It means persisting in the face of repeated failures. It means never giving up. And both that word and that outlook on life feature prominently in today's conversation. We have an interesting debate on the role startups have to play in space exploration. And I don't mean just the SpaceX scale startups. SpaceX is doing awesome things, but most aspiring founders don't have access to the level of capital needed to play at that scale. We're talking about how small teams of innovators can make a difference and how NASA and maybe even JAXA are changing in order to give them the chance to make that difference. Shin and I talk about the design of the Yaoki Rover itself, how we raised money for a project that almost no one believed in, and what it really takes to get your technology approved for a NASA mission. But, you know, Shin tells that story much better than I can. So let's get right to the interview.

Interview Tim: So we're sitting here with Shin Nakajima of Dymon, so thanks for sitting down with us. Shin: Thank you. Me too. Tim: You make this amazing lunar rover Yaoki, which is just amazingly cool. Tell us a little about the rover. Shin: This is what I am developing for 10 years, and now it's finished, and now it is contract with NASA Moon Rover project, which is called an Artemis. We are joining for commercial [inaudible 00:02:45]. Tim: Right. And for our listeners who can't see this, this looks nothing like you would imagine a lunar rover would look like. It's like, can I hold it? Shin: Yes, you can. Tim: Okay. That's so cool. I don't even know how to describe it. It looks like a little barbell with treads on it. Shin: Yes. Tim: I mean, this is really tiny, right? Shin: So very, very tiny. And it's just on the hand. Tim: So it's about six inches by six inches or so. Shin: It looks like a camera, camera size, and the two holes. And also this can lamb even drop because the hole is covering the body. So each time, every time wheel can touch the ground. Tim: So no matter what happens to it, it will always have wheels on the ground. Shin: Yes. Tim: All of us can always move forward. And that's actually part of the name, right? Shin: This name is Yaoki. Yaoki come from the nanakorobi-yaoki. Nanakorobi-yaoki direct translate to English is seven drops, but eight coming up. Tim: So fall down seven times. Stand up eight. Shin: So I never give up. Tim: Right. And you are, well, not you, but this cool little rover is flying to the moon later this year. Shin: Later this year. This is decided on announced by NASA website. Tim: Okay. I really want you to get into the specs and the mission and the business model in just a minute. But before that, I want to talk a little about you. And you have been working on this project for a really long time. Shin: Yes, actually it takes about 10 years. Tim: So, I mean, let's see. You found it in 2012. Right? Shin: 2012. I founded this company. Dymon. Tim: Okay, well let's, let's back up to the very beginning. So before Dymon, you worked at Audi's and automotive engineer. Shin: Yes. Audi Quantum system. You know, the Quantum system means Tim: Four wheel drive. Shin: Four wheel systems. I was inventor of that system. Tim: So what made you decide to start a startup and especially like a lunar explorer startup? Shin: 10 years ago, I was something like one of the cool driving engineer. I prouded myself, honestly. And the earthquake, big earthquake happens in Japan. Maybe everybody knows Tohoku earthquake. That time I decided to stop the, my engineer job and make startup, because I don't think in the future car big is not important, but something else. Tim: So was your original vision lunar rovers or was your original vision something else? Shin: Honestly speaking, after last week, what I decided is just quit my job. And after that, I think what to do next. then. Okay. I'm a driving engineer, so next step should be, not us, but the space. Okay. Moon. Tim: Wow. Because I would think, especially after the 3/11 earthquake, there's so much like in search and rescue or like the nuclear power plants, they were looking for robots to go in and clean up with. Did you ever think about that or were you just focused on space? Shin: Okay. 10 years ago, there is no plan to go to the moon every countries. But I decided my goal is to develop the lunar rover, but actually how can I earn money? Right? Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Shin: I mean, this is big problem because I was only one person, so nothing, nothing. But I decided to develop the lunar rover. And next big matter is how to earn the money. To earn the money. I also developed a robot, not to say lunar rover, but say robots. So 10 years ago, the main business is to develop the robots. Tim: Right? Because I mean, 10 years ago, no one is going to pay you to develop a lunar rover. Shin: Doesn't make any money. Tim: Not going to happen. So, what kind of projects, what kind of robots were you developing in the early days? Shin: Of course, many things, but some example wire inspection robot. Tim: Oh, so for example the power lines. Shin: Yes, power lines, electric power lines. And as everybody knows, it is now getting older and still this inspection is done by human. So very dangerous. And of course, some accident happens. Tim: Well, that sounds like an incredibly useful and profitable robot to be building. Why did you stop? Why did you, is it just you really just had this passion for building the lunar rover? Shin: Because this kind of development is not my own dream. So this is important, but not perfectly mine. My own dream is moon. Tim: So in the background, you were always working on the lunar rover? Shin: Something like that. On the daytime, I am doing a job for robots. And nighttime I am developing the lunar rover. Tim: So, when was the big chain in 2012, nobody's thinking about private lunar robots except for you and maybe a few people? When was Dymon able to really pivot and focus on lunar rovers? Shin: This is a good question. This point was like five years ago to developing robots is going, well, very lucky, I can earn money then I have one idea. Maybe I can continue developing the lunar rover for maybe two years. In two years, maybe some developing the rocket to go to the moon, but no guarantee. And actually Trump did, President Trump announced, we decided to go to the moon again. Tim: The Artemis project? Shin: Which is called Artemis and lucky things for me is Artemis program is having the ticket to join global ticket. Tim: All right. It's not just American companies, it's anywhere in the world. Shin: Yes. This is very rocky for me because Artemis is of course the American project, and most companies is of course American, but only few the global attendance is approved. Tim: Okay, well that brings us back to today. So let's get back to the moon. Your little rover will be flying to the lunar South Pole later this year. What's the goal of this mission? Shin: Yes, this mission to inspect the water. Tim: So searching for water. Shin: Searching water. Tim: And why is that important? Shin: In the upper case, upper inspection result is moon has nothing only sand. But after that the satellites are searching the water and it seems there should be a lot of water on the moon. And if there are lot of water on the moon, this water can be used space, energy, water to change to hydrogen. Hydrogen energy is very important for space. And of course for the human, water is very important. Tim: Yes, yes it is. This is all part of the Artemis project. So, what was the process of getting involved and getting approved for this mission? Shin: I started development 10 years ago, and after that takes eight years to lead certain level of the development.