In an exclusive interview, Yonit and Jonathan question Shalev Hulio, the CEO of the NSO Group, the Israeli company that has become one of the most controversial in the world. NSO sells spyware to governments across the globe for use, it says, against criminals and terrorists. But media organisations and human rights groups say Pegasus hacking software has been deployed against dissidents, journalists and activists. Hulio answers those allegations, tells us what explains the US government blacklisting of his company and sets out his view that the failure of the NSO could open the door to a more dangerous world. For this week's chutzpah award, Yonit pursues a culinary theme - nominating the US Congresswoman who confused soup with stormtroopers. While Jonathan's choice for mensch stays much closer to home.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.