The lies, myths, and secrets of Japanese UI design

There is a lot of hate directed at Japanese UI design.

To Western eyes, it's just too busy, too dense, too confusing, too outdated, and just plain wrong.

And sometimes that's true, but usually there are very good, and highly profitable, reasons Japanese websites and Japanese software looks the way it does.

Today I sit down and talk (and argue a bit) with Brandon Hill about how Japanese design got this way, and the new direction it's currently heading.

It's an amazing conversation, and I think you'll enjoy it.

Show Notes

Why people think Japanese UI design is broken The real reason Japanese sites never seem to get updated Why young Japanese sometimes prefer old-fashioned design How high-information density builds trust in Japan The social trigger that caused Japan to (almost) abandon minimalist design Why Japanese core design metaphors differ from those in the West Answering the top Western criticisms of Japanese design How Japanese labor law affects web and app design Why Western logo design is changing (and not for the better) The impact of smartphones on online and brick-and-mortar design What it's like for foreign designers at Japanese companies

Links from the Founder

Everything you ever wanted to know about btrax

The amazing btrax blog

A recommended in-depth article on American and Japanese UI/UX design Follow Brandon on Twitter @BrandonKHill Friend him on Facebook

Transcript Welcome to Disrupting Japan. Straight Talk from Japan's most successful entrepreneurs. I'm Tim Romero and thanks for joining me. Today we're going to talk about Japanese UI/UX design. For the last 20 years, there's been this steady stream of Western designers explaining how Japanese web design is “broken”. Now, those critics often make some good points, but they usually completely misunderstand the underlying reasons that Japanese design is the way it is. Today we're going to address these criticisms once and for all as we sit down over a beer with my old friend Brandon Hill. Now Brandon runs btrax, a design and market entry consultancy based in San Francisco. And for the past 10 years, Brandon's been working with Japanese firms to get their design and UI ready for the American markets and with American firms to get their design and UI ready for the Japanese markets. In terms of practical hands-on experience, Brandon probably knows more than anyone in the world about the reasons Japanese and Western UX design are so different. And that's what we're going to dig deep into today. This episode's a little long, but I assure you it's worth it. There was simply nothing more I could have edited out. We explore the common criticisms of Japanese design, we talk about the psychology of e-commerce, and we dive deep into Japan's commercial culture. But you know, Brandon tells that story much better than I can. So, let's get right to the interview.

Interview Tim: So, cheers! So, I'm sitting here with Brandon Hill, the CEO and founder of btrax. So, welcome back. Brandon: Thank you so much. It's my pleasure to be back here. Tim: Now I've given everyone a really detailed description of you and your expertise during the intro. But just to make sure, why don't you tell us a little bit about what btrax does. Brandon: I started this company btrax long time ago. It's a long time that I don't even remember when that was, but started as a web design agency in San Francisco, and then we started specializing in US and Japanese localization and cross-border, cross-cultural marketing and branding. We now do a lot of work for Japanese corporations to create a new businesses as well as promoting them, branding them, and expanding them into the global market. Likewise, we work with many US companies coming to the Japanese market, taking care of their marketing and branding and localization. So, that's what we do, Tim: And that is why I'm so glad to have you here, because I think you know, more than anyone else I know, and probably more than almost anyone in the world about Japanese design sensibilities versus western design sensibilities. And so we are going to work through all of the myths, truths, and half truths about Japanese design. Are you ready to dig into this? Brandon: I love to do that. Tim: So, like Japanese web design, how bad is it really? Brandon: It really depends on how you look at it. Because you said bad. It's is really a subjective opinion. From Western's point of view, they look really messy, clutter too busy. It's not intuitive. However, as far as I know, from performance point of view, that's the most appropriate design. Tim: Yeah. This is one thing I think is an obvious truth. I mean, since the early 2000s we've had a steady stream of American web designers coming to Japan declaring Japanese web design, hopelessly broken, and they're going to fix it. But the e-commerce sites in particular are extensively AB tested. Try everything. If you can get like a 3% uplift with a new design, people be all over it. So, it seems to me that like they're doing what works. If not what the consumer wants, what the consumer responds to. Brandon: So, I think there are two aspects to it as far as I see. One is people may prefer easy looking, messy layout. I wouldn't say messy, but it's cluttered and busy. The second thing if you realize is there are many, many websites in Japan, popular high traffic website that haven't been redesigned for 10 plus years. Tim: Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of it. Like Yahoo Japans still looks like Yahoo… Brandon: From 20 years ago. Tim: Yeah, yeah. Why is that? Is it It's certainly not laziness or lack of funds. Brandon: My theory here, two or three. One is people in this country do not typically like changes, they feel more comfortable sticking with the original design or what they have been seen on a daily basis. Something gets changed then they get freaked out. I mean, everywhere does, but especially in Japan, people get freaked out and traffic goes down for short amount of time. Eventually it'll come back, but before it comes back, maybe the corporate says like don't make those changes. Like, we don't want to have any dip. The second is aging society. Elderly people typically like to stick with what they have seen 10 years ago, and they don't want to learn anything new. So, mixture of those two, maybe. Tim: Yeah, that makes some sense. But like nobody likes change. Even like we Americans are supposed to be all this innovative in here, but we hate change too. And so like anytime someone redesigns a website or software, users hate it. So, what's kind of the mental calculus that the American companies are doing that Japanese aren't? Brandon: There's clear, clear differences there. In the United States typically tech startups, there is one person who takes full responsibility, which is CEO obviously. Recently Elon Musk purchased Twitter and he says, get rid of this, get rid of this team, people, I'll take full responsibility because I'm the CEO. Top down a hundred percent. People just follow him. And it's extreme case. But with many organizations in the United States, it's really top down. If the top guy says, change this today. Everything is different from tomorrow. In Japan I think even if the president has an opinion, he needs to get all the consensus from people around him, Nemawashi, yeah. Tim: Yeah. That is an excellent point. And actually, and I think that is something that a lot of people misunderstand about Japan, particularly Westerners look at Japan, which in some ways very hierarchical. People are aware of and sensitive to the hierarchy. Protocol is there, it's almost military in some respects, but it's not top down. Brandon: It is not at all. It is not. Tim: It's kind of middle up… Brandon: It's middle up, I would say group of executives anywhere between like three to 10 people. There's committee sort of team, and you need to get a majority of votes from the committee members, otherwise you cannot push things forward. Tim: So, just the initial effort required to push it through internally is not worth the expected gain. Brandon: Right, right. Tim: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. On the consumer side, though, even new consumers, I mean, Yahoo, Japan, even though it looks just like it did in 2000, it's still attracting new users. I mean, young people use it. Why is that? Why hasn't a newer, hipper, cooler design site taken business away from them with the next generation? Brandon: My theory to that is when it comes to webpage on the computers Yahoo, Japan is leading, however younger audience shift focus onto mobile phones, smartphones. And there's some apps like SmartNews, NewsPicks, New Kids on the Block, taking younger audience possibly away from Yahoo, Japan. Tim: Okay, that makes sense. But I'm going to play devil's advocate. The American designers advocates here. So, I understand what you're saying but some things do seem objectively bad. I mean, for example, there is flashing colors on sites and there's images that are really low res. A lot of times I'll still fill out a form, and if I make a mistake, it clears the whole form. I mean, things that we haven't seen since the dotcom era in the US are still pretty common here. Brandon: Yeah, it is. It is. There are a few aspects there. I learned users in Japan like to get led to specific directions instead of, they decide everything all by themselves. It's cultural difference. If you go to a restaurant in the United States, you can pretty much customer order everything like slip or salt, what kind salt, what kind of dressing. Tim: Yeah. Japan is everything, this is the set menu. Brandon: Set menu and Omakase. Omakase is non-existent in the United States. Tim: After 30 years in Japan. I love Omakase. I mean, just bring me the food you decide. I love it. Brandon: So, the Japanese websites,