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SpyCast

SpyCast, the official podcast of the International Spy Museum, is a journey into the shadows of international espionage. Each week, host Sasha Ingber brings you the latest insights and intriguing tales from spies, secret agents, and covert communicators, with a focus on how this secret world reaches us all in our everyday lives. Tune in to discover the critical role intelligence has played throughout history and today. Brought to you from Airwave, Goat Rodeo, and the International Spy Museum. 

The Spy Museum does not endorse, approve, or support the opinions stated by guest speakers. Statements made by speakers do not represent the position or opinion of the International Spy Museum.

Summary
Hans Holmer (LinkedIn) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss his time as a CIA operations officer and his transition to a cyber strategist. He served on every continent except South America and won a CIA Intelligence Star.
What You’ll Learn
Intelligence

The advantages for a case officer growing up in two cultures and speaking multiple languages before joining the IC

The tech person trained to be a case officer vs. a case officer trained to be a tech person debate

That no amount of technology will make up for a lack of “cyber strategy”

The concept of “digital dandruff”

Reflections

Growing up in Denmark, moving to the US for high school, joining the Army then CIA

Privatizing information gains but collectivizing information losses

What it was like to program back in 1973!

And more…
Episode Notes 
Hans Holmer describes the cat-and-mouse of surveillance and counter-surveillance the most fun you can have (a) in public and (b) sober. Ever wondered how you go from a CIA case officer in the Sub-continent, to a technical counterintelligence evangelist who travelled the world, to a cyber strategist living in Vienna, Austria?
To find out, listen to this week’s episode where you’ll find Hans thoughtful and articulate, but I think you will also appreciate his forthright views on corporate data leaks and digital personal responsibility. He originally got in touch to talk about the Operation Silver, the British intelligence operation that covertly tapped the communications of the Soviet Army HQ in Vienna, at SPY we actually have a piece – yes, an actual piece – of the Berlin Tunnel, which was a successor operation – betrayed by communist MI6 officer George Blake – which borrowed heavily from Silver: it was even called Operation Gold!
The monitoring station in Op. Silver was disguised as a tweed clothing shop on the assumption that no one in Vienna would be interested in Scottish clothing! Hans actually tracked down the modern site of the tweed store and is trying to dig (no pun intended) for further information on the operation – can anyone help…?
Quote of the Week
"I've been arguing that the way to improve cyber security in the U.S. is very simple. Any company that loses personally identifiable information, payment card information, healthcare information, HIPAA data, or access to critical infrastructure, has to pay each victim a dollar a day from the beginning of the breach till it's been closed off…the average breach lasts about a hundred days…some of the more recent breaches are a hundred million people. So, imagine a hundred million people who get a dollar a day for a hundred days. Companies would take that seriously." 
Resources
SpyCasts

“Operation Gold” - Steve Vogel & Bernd von Kostka (Berlin Tunnel)

“George Blake, Happy Traitor” – Simon Kuper (Berlin Tunnel)

Zero Days – Nicole Perloth Part I and II (Cyber)

“The Cyber Zeitgeist” – Dave Bittner (Cyber)

“Snowden & Surveillance” – Barton Gellman (Cyber)

Books

Betrayal in Berlin, S. Vogel (CH, 2019)

Spymaster – MI6 Chief Oldfield, M. Pearce (Transworld, 2016) 

Documents on the Intelligence War in Berlin, D. Steury (CSI, 1999)

Best Books on Cybersecurity (Five Books)

Articles

“Engineering the Berlin Tunnel,” SII (2008)

“Betrayal in Berlin - Review,” WaPo (2019)

Documentaries

The Great Hack, Noujaim & Amer (2019)

Zero Days, A. Gibney (2016)

Education

Cyber Training Series (DNI)

The Danger of Stone Age Habits in a Cyber World (HSToday, 2019)

Primary Sources

Cyber Security Officer (CIA, 2022)

CIA Director Burns - Cyber (WSJ, 2021)

National Cyber Strategy of the USA (WH, 2018)

Interview with CIA Director Brennan - Cyber (NPR, 2016)

The IC’s Role Within Cyber R&D (FAS, 2013)

Remarks by DNI Clapper at HPSCI (DNI, 2011)

Securing Critical Infrastructure in the Age of Stuxnet (HSGA, 2010)

Mail Service of the Soviet Army in Austria (CIA, 1955)

Wildcard Resource

“Technical Counterintelligence Officer,” INTEL.gov 

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"From the CIA to Strategic Cyber" - with Hans Holmer

Summary
Hugh Wilford joins Andrew (X; LinkedIn) to discuss his new book. Hugh is a professor, author, and leading CIA historian. 

What You’ll Learn
Intelligence

Imperial influences on American intelligence

Key figures in CIA history 

“Wild” Bill Donovan & British influence

Groton School’s impact on CIA leaders

Reflections 

Inherited history

Challenging established narratives

And much, much more … 

Resources 
SURFACE SKIM
*Spotlight Resource*

The CIA: An Imperial History, Hugh Wilford (Basic Books, 2024)
*SpyCasts*

The British Monarchy and Secret Intelligence with Rory Cormac and Richard Aldrich (2024)

The Past 75 Years with Historian of the CIA Rhodri Jeffreys-Jones (2022)

The 75th Anniversary of the CIA with former Director Robert Gates (2022)

DEEPER DIVE
Books

A Question of Standing: The History of the CIA, R. Jeffreys-Jones (Oxford University Press, 2022) 

Spymasters: CIA Directors, C. Whipple (S&S, 2020)

A Brief History of the CIA, R. Immerman (Wiley, 2014)

Primary Sources 

Sherman Kent Obituary (1986)

Maj. Gen. Edward G. Lansdale to go to South Vietnam (1965) 

CIA Review of the World Situation (1947)

Lester to Truman re Centralized Intelligence (1947) 

National Security Act (1947)

Intelligence Remarks of Major General William J. Donovan (1946)

*Wildcard Resource*

Kim (1901) by Rudyard Kipling

As Hugh mentions in this interview, this book was the inspiration behind Kermit Roosevelt Jr.’s nickname, Kim. Harold Adrian Russell Philby, the infamous member of the Cambridge Spy Ring better known as Kim Philby, took inspiration from the same source. 

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“An Imperial History of the CIA” – with Hugh Wilford

Summary
Robert Gates (Website; Website) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to reflect on the 75th Anniversary of the CIA. He served 8 U.S. presidents. 

What You’ll Learn
Intelligence

His reflections on the CIA at 75

How the CIA’s story intersected with his own 

His take on the organization’s strengths and weaknesses 

The complex intl. environment the CIA must now help America navigate

Reflections

Twists of fate

Identity and institutions 

And much, much more…

Episode Notes
Robert M. Gates is the first career officer in the CIA’s history to rise from entry level employee to Director. He spent 27 years at CIA, nine of those at the NSC. More recently, he was the first Secretary of Defense to be asked to remain in office by a newly elected president. In all, he served 8 presidents. 
Wouldn’t you love to know his take on the CIA at 75? Well, we’ve made that happen for you!
He was born in Wichita, Kansas, served in the U.S.A.F. and he received his undergraduate education at William & Mary, his masters from Indiana University, and his doctorate from Georgetown University. He was formerly the President of Texas A&M University and the current Chancellor of William & Mary. 
And…
The academic institutions Dr. Gates has been associated with all have quite different capacities of football stadium: Georgetown University’s Cooper Field can hold 3,750; William & Mary’s Zable Stadium can hold 12,259; Indiana University’s Memorial Stadium can hold 52,626; and Texas A&M’s Kyle Stadium can hold a whopping 102,733. What could we infer about Dr. Gates, college sports, or the United States from this information? Well, that would be thinking like an intelligence analyst.

Quote of the Week
"I've led four very big, very different institutions and like all of them I always saw where places where CIA could be better. But I always loved the place, and I always was proud to work there and proud of the people that I knew…they were probably the smartest, most honest people I've ever met and worked with." – Robert Gates.

Resources
*Andrew’s Recommendation*

“Reorganization in the Intel. Community,” DCI Gates (1992)

Watch this prescient clip on historical naivete, or if you’re hardcore, the entire congressional testimony

*SpyCasts*

“Dealing with Russia” – with Jim Olson (2022)

“I was a Presidential Daily Briefer on 9/11” – with Mike Morell (2021)

*Beginner Resources*

History of CIA, CIA (n.d.) [website]

CIA Director’s Portrait Gallery, CIA (n.d.) [online gallery]

Impact of President G.H.W. Bush’s Foreign Policy, MSNBC (2018) [13 min. video]

At 75, CIA Back Where it Started, Countering Kremlin, G. Myre, NPR (2022) [5 min. audio]

Books

Spymasters: CIA Directors, C. Whipple (S&S, 2020)

Duty, R. Gates (Vintage, 2015) [Def. Sec. memoir]

A World Transformed, Bush & Scowcroft (Knopf, 1998)

From the Shadows, R. Gates (S&S, 1996) [CIA memoir]

Power & Principle, Z. Brzezinski (FS&G, 1983) [Gates was Z.B.’s Special Asst. at the NSC during the Carter era]

Articles

A More Realistic Strategy for the Post-Cold War Era, R. Gates, WaPo (2022)

Creation of the Central Intelligence Group, M. Warner, SII (1996) 

Video

Legacy of the G.H.W.B. Administration, CFR (2016)

Book Talk: From the Shadows, R. Gates, C-Span (1996)

Documentary

The Spymasters, Showtime (2015)
Curatorial

Pocket History of CIA, CIA (2014)
Primary Sources

Biden Speech on 75th Anniversary of the CIA (2022)

Robert Gates on CIA and Openness (1992)

Nomination of Gates to be DCI (1991)

Adm. Roscoe, First CIA Director Dies (1982) 

CIA Review of the World Situation (1947)

Lester to Truman re Centralized Intelligence (1947) 

National Security Act (1947)

*Wildcard Resource*

North by Northwest (Hitchcock, 1959)

We hear the first explicit mention of “CIA” in a major movie

 “FBI. CIA. ONI. We’re all in the same alphabet soup.”

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From the Vault: “The 75th Anniversary of the CIA” – with former Director Robert Gates

Introducing the new host of SpyCast, Sasha Ingber! In this week’s episode, Sasha joined Erin in a conversation about her career and the future of the International Spy Museum’s flagship podcast. Now entering it’s 19th year, SpyCast will relaunch on January 14th with brand new episodes, featuring exciting spy stories and the latest intelligence from the shadowy world of espionage. Tune in to learn more about Sasha, our very first female host and the first host with a background in journalism.

As we look forward to our upcoming relaunch, we want to extend our sincere gratitude to those who have had a hand in uplifting SpyCast throughout the past 18 years. In particular, we’d like to thank our outgoing host Dr. Andrew Hammond, whose passion for the history of intelligence and genuine connection with each of our guests shined through each of the 200+ episodes he produced. A special thanks is also due to our friends at N2K Networks for their talented production and unwavering support of the podcast. 

We can’t wait to introduce you all to the new era of SpyCast. See you in the new year! 

Subscribe to Sasha’s Substack, HUMINT, here: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ 
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Introducing the New Host: Sasha Ingber

Former intelligence officer Bryan Stern describes the tradecraft he used on Russian intelligence and military services to rescue an American imprisoned in Russian-occupied Ukraine.
If you liked this episode check out these links to more hostage rescue stories:

SpyCast - James Foley: Journalist, ISIS Hostage, Son – with His Mother Diane Foley

Operación Jaque - The Daring Rescue Mission That Freed 15 Hostages

Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Guest: Ambassador Roger D. Carstens

Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories:
https://sashaingber.substack.com/

To learn more about Bryan’s work with Grey Bull you can visit greybullrescue.org. 

And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org. 

This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How do you fool Russian Intelligence?

Now that President Trump has been inaugurated, what can we expect for the intelligence community? On his first full day in his first term, he visited the CIA to voice support. But he has also displayed deep skepticism and accused spy agencies of undermining him. Beth Sanner is a highly decorated, retired career intelligence officer who briefed Trump with the President’s Daily Brief, a highly classified summary of the US most critical national security threats. She shares her thoughts on what lies ahead.

If you liked this episode, check out:

The President's Book of Secrets - Understanding the President’s Daily Brief (PDB) with David Priess

Hot Topics: Intelligence Challenges in an Election Year

Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories:
https://sashaingber.substack.com/

And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org, 

This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How will President Trump handle intelligence in his second term?

Agent Zo was the only female Polish resistance agent to reach London as a courier during WWII and the only female member of Poland's fabled 'Silent Unseen' paratroopers. Yet despite having researched Poland's wartime resistance movement, many of us have never heard of her. Why?

If you liked this episode, check out these links:
Agent Zo: The Extraordinary Woman Who Parachuted Into Nazi-Occupied Poland
Women Spies of WWII with Ellen McCarthy, Judith L. Pearson, and Erika Robuck
The Danger of the Femme Fatale Narrative
Code Name Madeleine with author Arthur J. Magida

Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories:
https://sashaingber.substack.com/

And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org, 

This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Agent Zo: The woman who defied the Nazis and Communists

For decades, colleges and universities have been a destination for espionage. Especially in recent years, the use of international students and faculty as spies on American campuses has been particularly daunting. Why do intelligence services, both foreign and domestic, target colleges and universities? And what is there to gain on these campuses? Award-winning journalist Daniel Golden, author of the book Spy Schools, describes the timeless game. 

If you liked this episode, check out these links:

Secret History of History: Color Wars Part II with Catherine McKinley

Chinese Corporate Espionage - The Tale of the Tea Thief with Sarah Rose

Declassified Dessert | How to Make Cuban Spy Ana Montes’ Cheesecake

Queen of Cuba with Peter J. Lapp

SpyCast | “Making Sense of China, Taiwan, & America” – Pacific Intelligence with Bonny Lin

Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories:
https://sashaingber.substack.com/

And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org, 

This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Campus Cloak-and-Dagger: Spies Targeting American Universities

North Korea is growing more dangerous, but no U.S. administration has been able to crack the code on its leader Kim Jong Un. Now, there’s even less incentive for Kim to negotiate because of the support he’s getting from Russia. So what will Kim do next, and where is he vulnerable? Jung H. Pak, a former CIA analyst who served as the country’s top diplomat for North Korea, takes us inside the mind of one of the world's most opaque leaders.

If you liked this episode, check out these links:

Virtual Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Guest: Dr. Jung H. Pak
AI and Emerging Technologies: Intelligence Opportunities & Challenges 

Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories:
https://sashaingber.substack.com/

And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org, 

This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's next for Kim Jong Un?

She’s known for helping to free people through the Underground Railroad, but Harriet Tubman was also a spy during the Civil War. And with the intelligence she collected, the Maryland native became the first woman to lead men into battle on gunboats down the Combahee River in South Carolina. The Combahee River Raid destroyed several vital Confederate rice plantations and liberated more than 750 people from enslavement. 

Social historian Edda Fields-Black reveals new details about the raid and Tubman.
And later in the episode, Ernestine Wyatt, Tubman’s great-great-great-grandniece, discusses the importance of Harriet’s espionage work and the legacy of her dedication to democracy. 

If you liked this episode, check out these links:

The Real Harriet Tubman

African Americans in Espionage | International Spy Museum

Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories:
https://sashaingber.substack.com/

And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at spycast@Spymuseum.org, 

This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How did Harriet Tubman operate as a spy?

What should the US Intelligence Community prioritize domestically and overseas, and how should the work be done? We sat down with Congressman Rick Crawford, Chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, to learn his perspective on these questions. The conversation emphasized the growing threat of China’s influence in the West, the impact of the new Open Source Intelligence Subcommittee, and the importance of analytic integrity in intelligence. 

If you liked this episode, check out these links:

Spy Chat with Chris Costa | Special Guest: Beth Sanner

Dir. of National Intelligence Roundtable: 2025 Society for Intelligence History Panel

An Evening with H.R. McMaster

Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts. 

Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/ 

And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org. 

This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A Conversation with House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence Chairman

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